My point is that separation of church and state is one of the founding principles of our nation for a reason. Jewish faith and culture are one of the pillars of western civilization and American democracy is one of the beacons of freedom and justice in the world but when the separation between them is breached the result is a negative transformation of both. Government becomes faith-based rather than principles based as it takes on the characteristics of a religion and religion degenerates into fanatical nationalism.
First of all, the separation of church and state involved Christianity not Judaism.
Second, the founding fathers never envisioned no religious involvement just no official state religion.
Third, given that you have posted that the Jews have failed to get their way despite the 3rd largest lobby, I would say that our government would appear to be safe from the machinations of the Elders of Zion, er that is the Jewish lobby for the time being. Thanks for posting that. I feel safer knowing the Jews do not have our politics under their thumb yet. I mean that is important given that media and finance are already theirs. Right?
[quote=“fred smith”]First of all, the separation of church and state involved Christianity not Judaism.
Second, the founding fathers never envisioned no religious involvement just no official state religion.
Third, given that you have posted that the Jews have failed to get their way despite the 3rd largest lobby, I would say that our government would appear to be safe from the machinations of the Elders of Zion, er that is the Jewish lobby for the time being. Thanks for posting that. I feel safer knowing the Jews do not have our politics under their thumb yet. I mean that is important given that media and finance are already theirs. Right?[/quote]
Two profoundly ignorant statements and a third shameless display of demagoguery.
Spook:
I aim to please. haha
The Pentagon has just notified Congress (26 April) that it plans to “sell” 100 Lockheed Martin Corp GBU-28 laser guided bunker-busting bombs to Israel.
Israel reports it plans to take delivery of the GBU-28s in time for an early summer “stump clearing operation.”
Well, considering that Iranian cleric Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani declared yesterday he was set to stand again for president in the June 17 election, Voice of Bahrain, 26th April 2005 and that Imman Rafsanjani has publicly declared, on multiple occasions, that MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL, this may be considered a prudent move.
But then again…it is…The Jooos!
It’s also a fact that portends the possibility of more warfare in the Middle East and in a free-speech society that’s supposed to be good enough.
The only time factual truth isn’t not good enough is when it rubs some society’s party line the wrong way.
Then, it’s “anti-Soviet” or “anti-Islam” or, in our case, “anti-Semitic.”.
[quote=“spook”]The Pentagon has just notified Congress (26 April) that it plans to “sell” 100 Lockheed Martin Corp GBU-28 laser guided bunker-busting bombs to Israel.
Israel reports it plans to take delivery of the GBU-28s in time for an early summer “stump clearing operation.”[/quote]spook -
interesting post. Upon further research it seems that no support for your main premise can be found. What can be found is this…
[quote]Israel seeks to acquire ‘bunker busters’[/b]
By JPOST STAFF AND AP, Apr. 27, 2005 6:47 | Updated Apr. 27, 2005 12:35
The Pentagon has informed the US congress that Israel has requested to purchase 100 laser-guided smart bombs, which could potentially be used to target and destroy underground bunkers, Israel Radio reported.
The cost of the deal would reach $30 million.
Pentagon officials said that the deal would not effect the balance of power in the Middle East, although American military experts suggested that Israel could use the bombs to attack Iranian nuclear facilities.
The laser-guided bombs, manufactured by the Lockheed Martin Corporation, can be carried by F-15 fighter jets.
Congress has a 30-day deadline to decide on whether or not to allow the deal to go forth.
Israel may be seeking to use the so-called ‘bunker busters’ if and when it decides to target Iranian nuclear facilities.
jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? … 4568594299[/quote]
It would seem that you are playing rather fast & loose with timelines.
Do you have a link to support your original statement?
Congress, to my knowledge, has never denied an Israeli request for weapons systems so the odds of that happening now are purely academic, particularly since this request most likely originated at the highest levels during Ariel Sharon’s recent visit to the U.S.
Also, your news is old. The Pentagon is required by law to formally ask Congress for permission to fulfill the Israeli request and has just done so. That’s also a purely academic quibble since the Pentagon, to my knowledge, has never thwarted an Israeli request for weapons.
Israel is the U.S.'s closest ally. It’s situated in the middle of the world’s number one hotspot where the bulk of U.S. military forces are currently engaged in occupation and hostilities. It’s the number one recipient of U.S. military and economic aid.
Because of these facts it’s bound to be a factor in events throughout the Middle East. For example, if Israel does strike Iran this summer with GBU-28s, it will potentially have a significant impact on U.S. troops in Iraq and upon world oil supplies.
Yet, for some bizarre reason, Americans individually and American society in general treat these issues as unmentionables and crudely and unfairly taunt breaches of this wall of silence as “anti-Semitism” without offering any justification whatsoever.
I could understand if the events I cite are untrue but in each case I cite events which are wholly or substantially true, provide credible substantiation of the citations, and my citations are in most cases not generally being reported by U.S. media even though they have a potentially significant impact on Americans everywhere and should be discussed, debated – and challenged – openly.
Oh my…I neglected to mention that the JPost quote is an i[/i] from the complete article.
Clicking the supplied link allows one to read this article from yesterdays edition.
The Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency formally notified Congress of the intended sale of GBU-28’s yesterday.
“U.S. OKs Bunker Buster Bombs for Israel”
By Associated Press
April 27, 2005, 6:52 PM EDT
WASHINGTON – The Bush administration has authorized the sale of as many as 100 large bunker-buster bombs to Israel.
Fantastic news spook. Now, don’t pretend that you did not know that we support strong action against Iran. I do. Others like me do as well. I mean I notice that in the other thread you complain that someone was asleep at the switch regarding North Korea. We will not make that same mistake with Iran. Is that not somewhat inconsistent? I mean Carter and Clinton fucked up North Korea in 1994 and now we have a problem. That is precisely why we will not let that happen in Iran and why we did not let it happen in Iraq. You are welcome.
I know you do, unlike North Korea which restarted and accelerated its nuclear weapons program during the Bush Administration’s watch. The question is do the America people. Maybe they should be informed and consulted first before they’re dragged into the middle of Israel’s confrontation with Iran so that years later, when some Iranian terrorist sets off a dirty bomb in a mall in Washington, D.C. in retaliation, they’ll at least have some idea it was coming.
On the other hand, maybe it’s best just to keep things the way they are and keep them in the dark because the facts will probably just confuse them. Just tell them another 3,000 Americans died because “they just hate democracy” and what can be done about that?
One reason why “you” don’t want a national debate first, of course, is because it would highlight the fact that the U.S. and Israeli position is that they won’t even allow Iran to have a peaceful nuclear energy program as allowed under the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. In other words, Iran is to forever remain a fossil-fuel dependent nation while Israel bristles with weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons.
Doesn’t sound like the old American way when you spell it out.
The rational solution to the problem, in case anyone were interested, is for the U.S. to insist that Iran allow U.S. inspectors full and permanent access to all Iranian nuclear facilities if it also insists Israel dismantles its weapons of mass destruction arsenal and likewise allows U.S. inspectors to monitor its nuclear energy facilities.
That’s far better than the typical heavy-handed neoconservative final solution of just bombing the hell out of Iran’s peaceful and non-peaceful nuclear energy facilities alike without bothering to get the fully informed consent of the American people.
[Personal attack removed by moderator. Please read the rules and refrain from making such accusations in future (including stating them as your personal opinion.]
Well, if Iran has nuclear weapons, have you checked into the strategic plans of Saudi Arabia and Egypt? Why would these two nations and perhaps Turkey feel the need to then have nuclear weapons if it is all about Israel? Hmmm? Cat got your tongue?
Anyway, the North Korean nuclear problem was in existence in 1994 and was swept under the rug and you ask why I dislike Carter so much?
Finally, Iran is NOT yet nuclear, North Korea is. Ergo, different scenario entirely. I want to deal with North Korea too but believe that containment can be a better option given the strong neighbors to north, south, east and west, a situation which did not exist in the case of Iraq and to a lesser extent is also true for Iran. WE need to free Iran and then once the Iranians are free, perhaps I will find it in my heart to start forgiving Carter. Yes, I blame him for Iran.
For the record, I don’t consider myself above accusations of anti-Semitism. I may be motivated my anti-Semitism and just not realize it. Likewise, though, I don’t consider Israel above criticism as some do.
Where I draw the line though is when one makes accusations and refuses to back them up with evidence and rational justifications.
On one side of that line lies malicious libel and on the other side legitimate criticism.
That said, the argument that nothing whatsoever can be done about North Korea now except blame Jimmy Carter is little more than a specious copout. Having “known” hordes of weapons of mass destruction and the means to deliver them certainly didn’t hinder the invasion of Iraq.
Why is it so hard to take in one simple sentence that Bush said… We have to invade Iraq before the threat becomes imminent. Do you deny that he said this?
So please explain to me, why Israel should be the primary factor in the discussion of nuclear weapons development in Iran? Why have you not responded to Saudi and Egyptian plans to develop nuclear weapons of their own if this happens. Why not talk about Turkey which has hinted that it may do the same? Why only Israel?
Would it be acceptable for Iran to use nuclear weapons as long as they were only used against Israel? But if they were used, what about recovering the land for the Palestinians? Or is the destruction of Israel more important than returning the land to the Palestinians. I am so confused spook. Be sure and enlighten me.
As to Carter… He has already been judged by history. He was and is a failure. When Iran is finally free, then perhaps the worst of his failures will have been wiped clean.
His actions in North Korea in 1994… please explain them. Please justify them especially in light of the harsh comments you have made regarding Bush not acting against them. I will be very curious how you balance all of this.
Finally, I have told you why I think that you are anti-Semitic. Every single thing that occurs in the Middle East and you hold it through an Israel filter. Do you deny this? Am I not rational or fair for pointing this out? Can this not be part of the debate?
The “threat” that was supposed to be imminent (and is now known to be completely phony) was nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons aren’t the only “weapons of mass destruction” though. As we’ve more than amply documented, the Bush and Blair regimes flatly stated Iraq bristled with other weapons of mass destruction and had the means to deliver them and their locations and magnitudes were known with exactitude.
The question as to whether Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and other Muslim countries in the Middle East are on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons is a completely valid security issue and needs to be dealt with clearly and decisively.
Arguing that it’s hate speech to include the only country in the Middle East with an existing arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in the proliferation debate though is morally and intellectually fraudulent.
No Spook:
You find me the quote where that was said. What Bush said was that we needed to act BEFORE the threat became imminent. Your excessive politicizing of his statements is not going to get you any ground. Bush said BEFORE the threat became imminent. Unless you can prove Bush did not say this or said something else, then you are wrong. And look where he made the statement. In his prominent state of the union address. That should be considered to be his outlining of foreign policy goals. This is where he made the statement. Back to you.
Ah but MT:
Here again we have another example of how everything is filtered through Israel.
For someone who is so sensitive to such things, can you imagine if someone were to attack the “right” victims for you? say gays? blacks? poor oppressed brown people? Muslims? What you would say?
How does Iran having nuclear weapons have to do with Israel first? Is it not a threat to other countries as well? If so, why have Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey all talked about going nuclear if Iran does? But always it is Israel Israel Israel and that is code for Jews Jews Jews.
I am after all still waiting for you to justify your admiration of Che Guevara who after all has personally killed far more people than Bush and who has been responsible for policies that have improverished Latin America and fostered “hatred.” It was after all once of his central tenets and for you (someone who claims to hate hatred) to admire him, that I find very very very amusing in a not very amusing sort of way.
I also accuse you of being a moral relativist? Do you deny it? Does no one else see why I call you that? I don’t think so and I think that many others may agree with me regarding Spook and what I believe to be signs of his anti-Semitism (the jewish kind).
Shall we take a vote? on both counts?
George Bush said:
[quote]Israel faces hard choices of its own. Its government has supported the creation of a Palestinian state that is not a haven for terrorism. Yet, Israel also must recognize that such a state needs to be politically and economically viable.
Consistent with the Mitchell plan, Israeli settlement activity in occupied territories must stop. And the occupation must end through withdrawal to secure and recognize boundaries consistent with United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338. . .
Israel should also show a respect, a respect for and concern about the dignity of the Palestinian people who are and will be their neighbors. . .
The Israeli government should be compassionate at checkpoints and border crossings, sparing innocent Palestinians daily humiliation. Israel should take immediate action to ease closures and allow peaceful people to go back to work. . .
These are the elements of peace in the Middle East. . .[/quote]
caabu.org/press/documents/bu … l2002.html
ANTI-SEMITE!!! :raspberry: