ROC lays claim to Tibet

ac_dropout (in another thread) wrote:

Does it though? I’ve forgotten.

I thought the ROC gave up Tibet and Mongolia recently.

Brian

[quote=“Bu Lai En”]
I thought the ROC gave up Tibet and Mongolia recently.
Brian[/quote]Some years ago.

Not really, in 1991 LTH only made a statement that ROC doesn’t challenge PRC rule over the mainland. ROC has not officially given up claim over outer Mongolia and Tibet. There are still 35 provinces in the ROC.

Is one of them called Lala Land? Seriously, does anyone take this…uh, seriously anymore? Isn’t the whole idea of the ROC antiquated now?

Antiquated? The pan-Greens have only been in power like 5 years.

But look at the full color ROC map in all its splendid glory below.

Don’t be misled by the subtext of “Entire Map of Republic of China
You know children in Taiwan use to memorize this map for the geography section of the entrance exams in order to get higher education.

With the pan-Green in charge now, I’m kind of scared of what passes for geography in ROC now. Detail maps of Taiwan island with all the 7-11 and KTV sites mark off.

I htought i rememberd something specifically relating to Tibet and Mongolia. I’m thinking around 2001. Anybody?

Brian

The president has never had the power to give up the ROCs claim on anything. It used to be the National Assembly which had the power to alter the boundaries of the ROC. Since the NA has been abolished it can only be done via referendum nowadays.

Since the threshold for the referendum is very high it would be virtually impossible for Taiwan to officially give up Tibet.

Mongolia is a bit more complicated because (as far as I recall) they were granted independence from the ROC only for CKS to change his mind and claim they were still part of China.

The interesting related question is: did the National Assembly officially reclaim Taiwan back in the 1940s? I’ve got a feeling they didn’t … :laughing:

There was I think a declaration in 1945 that Mongolia was independent, designed to please Moscow. Then Peanut back tracked and declared it part of his territory. In 1991 there was a statement of no challenge to the PRC’s claim over Tibet and Mongolia. You may note that recent (CSB administration) ROC official maps do not include Mongolia, and there is now an ROC representative office in Ulan Bator.

Perhaps you’re thinking of the establishment in January 2003 of the Taiwan-Tibet Exchange Foundation, which was intended as a transitional organization between Tibetan affairs being handled by the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission (long resented by the Tibetans) and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

The irony is pretty rich isn’t it? :astonished:

I believe the official position is that the CSB administration has declared the Dept. of survey no longer needs to include all 35 provinces of ROC in the official ROC map.

The copy I have is published in 1998 by the ROC dept. of survey. As of 2004 that version is no longer available.

But if Ma wins in 2008, I’m sure the map will once again be made available.

So even “Free China” acknowledges Tibet is part of its territory, just like Diaoyutai is part of its territory, because it is well illustrated on the map CSB and myself have memorized as part of our ROC primary education.

Aside from all the “bollocks” that we all enjoy talking (a technical term for the theoretical, legalistic and historical references we use to back up what are non-empirical normative opinions) : -

AC - do you actually advocate the retaking of Mongolia by either the PRC or ROC?

fruitloop,

That really depends if Russia still feels it needs a buffer state between China and itself.

Given the fact that the majority of Mongolian live in the PRC and the fact Mongolia has a stagnate/declining economy after the fall of USSR. It is just a matter of time before Outer Mongolia falls into PRC sphere of influence in the future.

PRC already stabilize most of their Northern boarder disputes already.

ROC is in no position to re-take anything at this time. ROC cannot even control the EEZ of the Japanese over Daioyutai, let alone try to take on the PRC for the mainland.

So, bearing in mind that most Mongolians are quite happy being Mongolian, in their own state, should the PRC deny them that, and why? Does China have a right to Mongolia? Do the Mongolians have a right to their own state (which has existed since around 1920)?

Mongolia certainly doesn’t feel like China. Most Chinese don’t live in tents for one thing!

Some would say it’s only a matter of time before Inner Mongolia gets to join Outer Mongolia!

What are you talking about Mongolia is like North Korea, most of them want to leave their State and look for a better life in the PRC as illegal immigrants. Think of them as the Mexicans of China if you will.

Inner Mongolia join Outer Mongolia? Might as well discuss free Tibet. It is not going to happen within our lifetime.

The creation of the Mongolian state was an attempt by USSR at a land grab on China, like Siberia. Unlike Tibet, the foriegn forces succeed. Whether or not it will continue to be as such remains to be seen. Recently Russia and PRC come to an agree to fix the northern boarder for the next 20 years. I suspect in 20 years the leverage will be in PRC favor.

Mongolian are just another sinicized enthic group in China. Just like the Yuan Dynasty is Chinese history now.

China is not a nation state. Like the USA it is compose of many ethnic groups, 56 and counting. The only difference is that China’s process of sinicization is a lot better than most other countries, since full assimilation occurs in a few generations. Whereas in most other countries even the simple task of phenotypic assimilation is hindered by race politics.

In any event the Republic of China claims Tibet and Outer Mongolia as theirs. People should be happy, the ROC could have used the Yuan Dynasty map as reference.

So this Free Tibet thing is a joke. ROC leaders that use the Dali Lama to bring attention to Taiwan Independence are a joke, because they probably view Tibetian like they view aboriginals on Taiwan, 3rd class citizens that are asked to move to South America when they become a bother.

AC, I have a question - you mock the ROC for continuing formally to lay claim to Tibet and Mongolia, but if the government wanted to officially cancel that claim, they’d have to change the constitution, which you and your side would interpret as a move toward independence. So how can the ROC satisfy you in this matter? Seems like a handy win-win complaint for you to me. If they officially drop the claim they’re moving to independence, if they don’t they’re fools.

Tetsuo,

That’s why the Taiwan Independence group are a bunch of idiots in my opinion. They took a perfectly good paradigm of Status Quo and injected an element that would force ROC and PRC into a direct confrontation.

These zealots claim the ROC doesn’t exist, so Japan decides to expand the EEZ.

Not wanting to miss the Richard Gere, Steven Seagal, and Brad Pitt Hollywood limelight they make friendly with the Dali Lama, forgetting ROC claims the very piece of land the former serf owner wants to rule again. :loco:

I think this is one of those cases where different branches of the government arrive at contradictory policies, and nobody much cares. It’s more of a cumulative thing than an all-or-nothing.

Let’s see…what changes in policy have their been in the last few years?

The Interior Ministry no longer insists on approving maps and globes, with the result that they no longer sell those alternate-universe looking ones with China including Tuva, and the capitol at Nanjing.

There was some noise about eliminating the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission, or merging it into the Foreign Ministry or something. They haven’t done it yet, but the handwriting’s on the wall. A lot of its budget was apparently redirected to that Dalai Lama / Taiwan relations office. (Recall that back in the old days, the Dalai Lama was none to happy with the MTAC.)

And…is it the Labor Ministry that decided to treat Outer Mongolia as a foreign country, for purposes of hiring maids and such?

Yes, the Mongols (like the Tibetans) mostly hate the Chinese. But there are only a few million of each, and without powerful patrons (British India, Russia) they don’t stand a chance. (They would both have done very well if Japan had won World War II in the Pacific.)

A few years ago China and Russia signed a border treaty which guaranteed, among other things, the status quo in Mongolia for at least 20 years. What does this tell you?

Oh, and Inner Mongolia is 95 % Chinese by now. Just like Manchuria.

Answer the question please AC.