ROC lays claim to Tibet

I’m sorry, WTF?? You’re claiming that Siberia is part of this bloody ridiculous “great chinese nation state brotherhood of superior peoples place” you keep on blithering about? Did Xinhua have a story saying Zheng He did a polar route to Europe to, and therefore Siberia is traditional Chinese territory or something?? Some sort of support for this would be greatly appreciated. This whole “foreigner’s always taking our stuff so we have to take it back” line is reallllllly old and still absolute trash.

It’s called one-sided history and/or propaganda. One thing dynastic rulers have always been great at. How the hell you think this therefore removes a group’s ability to choose how to live or have a separate country is far far beyond my comprehension.

Relentless persecution and outright slaughter. Yes, very good “sinicization”. Very eloquent way of saying things as always.

And I have a 1000 year old map Ayuthaya, Thailand, saying Yunan is Thai. So sorry, but I have a map so it must be true and the PRC has just got no choice but to comply with Thailand’s claims…

I would have thought that after you’re little siesta you would have learned something and kept the monkey scat to a minimum. Open your eyes and learn what “critical thinking” means. Just because your brainwashed high school teacher or Xinhua says something doesn’t mean its true.

i sincerely hope china has a better “sinicization” process than other countries.

yes, i apologize for following up myself with myself. dui bu qi.

yes, siberia could be ID’d as part of china. the following is taken from THE SHAMAN’S COAT: A Native History of Siberia by Anna Reid:

“The cartographical shenanigans over Sakhalin refelcted its equally hazy political geography. Sakhalin,it has been said, is ‘the Orient’s Alsac-Lorraine’. In medieval times its indigenous people paid fur tribute to the Chinese, at a fort at the mouth of the Amur. A hundred anf thirty miles upstream, the ruins of a Buddhist temple could still be seen in the 1850’s, inscribed in Chinese and Mongolian characters…”

Chinese are flooding the Russian far-east today. Vladivostok is awash with chinese vendors and script.

[quote=“skeptic yank”]A hundred anf thirty miles upstream, the ruins of a Buddhist temple could still be seen in the 1850’s, inscribed in Chinese and Mongolian characters…"

Chinese are flooding the Russian far-east today. Vladivostok is awash with Chinese vendors and script.[/quote]

At certain times in China’s past, not referring to recent history, there have been churches in China. By your logic, that would make China arguably part of Europe. Cultural influence often has nothing to do with political boundaries.

Likewise, there are parts of certain cities in the US that speak more Chinese than English…which has nothing to do with the extension of Chinese territory.

ROC didn’t even recognize Tibet Independence, when the slave owners unilaterally declared it in a fashion that would not be considered legitmate under modern international politics, that is historical fact.

The only parallel that Tibet and Taiwan share is a very vocal minority claiming to be independent and not Chinese…not to mention they both ineffective against the PRC.

The vast majority of Tibetans, Taiwanese, and Mongolians are happily assimilated in the larger Chinese culture.

This has nothing to do with Xin Hua. If you study Chinese history that ROC requires for higher education, during the Tang dynasty parts of what we call Siberia was under Chinese administration, so was Korea and Afghanistan.

Let’s see when White Russian soldiers drive out the Chinese and assimilated Mongolians out of Chinese territory to create a buffer state, sort of makes me wonder how “natural” a choice was it. Not to mention outer Mongolian was only able to survive due to heavy USSR aid.

Currently there are more ethnic Mongolians in China than in Mongolia. It is just a matter of time before it falls under China’s sphere of influence again.

Don’t get me started on SE Asia. Vietnam, Laos, etc. Heavily assimilated areas.

Actually, you will still findtextbooks, which on the subject of Siberia writes:

“In the 1680’s Russians crossed Ural and invaded Chinese Siberia.”

I kid you not.

Overall, China is an abusive international power, using and rewriting history to serve its own terratorial ends.

Did any of you hear the very old Joke about the US president and the russian president being frozen down for 50 years?

When they were avokened, they went down and bought a newspaper.

The first thing, the Russian president saw was a headline stating:

“Dow Jones Industrial Average at new loved; closed a 155 yeasterday.”

He teased the Us president with it.

The the US president found a small notice on page 22:

“New border skirmishes between Finland and China.”

I thought it was funny - once.

yes, there ancient churches in what is now china. IIRC they were nestorian. not really european. kinda a different branch.

it ain’t MY logic. get one of your han friends talking sometime about the “destiny” of the han people.

all the buddhist temples in china clearly mark her as a cultural colony of India. try that on em and watch the smoke come out their ears

Regarding countries that used to be something else:

Half the bloody world used to be ultimately governed from Whitehall but I don’t begrudge these countries their independence. Actually, I’m very happy for them to be free from colonial oppression even though you can’t get a decent cup of tea in half these places these days. :slight_smile:

Many of these places were not natural, unified nations before the British came - sometimes causing problems when the post-colonial lines were drawn on the map, others not. India (many different kingdoms before) seems to be a fairly settled and united nation, ongoing tensions with Pakistan and a few Hindu and Seikh fundamentalists notwithstanding. Bangladesh has made its own way free from India and West Pakistan.

One gets the feeling that some of the nationalist Chinese we know and love at very best begrudge places like Mongolia, Korea, Afghanistan, Siberia etc their changed status or independence.

The message to the nationalists is - things can change. Sometimes you have to accept that. It’s altogether healthier for all concerned if you learn to celebrate it though.

[quote=“fruitloop”]

One gets the feeling that some of the nationalist Chinese we know and love at very best begrudge places like Mongolia, Korea, Afghanistan, Siberia etc their changed status or independence. [/quote]

You hit the nail on the head there.

You put the nail on the head there. Actually, due to the nationalist indoctrination here in Taiwan, you quite often get slammed with those sentiments here. The main issue is that China - and to an extent ROC are empires, at least in mindset. However, they don’t see themselves as such. tibet, inner/outer mongolia, Siberia, East Turkestan etc. are part of their “sacred” motherland.

Also, the main difference between the UK and china is that the Brits made no bones about it. Their colonies in Africa, Asia, and the Americas were just that - colonies. If they were forced to, they would swap or give up the colonies without risking a major backlash at home. They were not seen as part of the homeland in any way or form.

The kind of racist sentiment, we in the west have grown more or less out of, IE “The White man’s burden”, is still alive and kicking here. The cultural arrogance reigns supreme here and makes it harder for governments here to get real and accept the current situation.

Yes, however no empires give up terratorial claims or pieces of land voluntarily.

I would imagine that India would have remained a part of the British Empire for a longer time, if the Amritsar Masascre and WWII had not changed conditions on the ground. Also that the economic issues facing the Uk after WWII made the colonial empire untenable, as ti was too expensive to run.

Hong Kong was given up because they had no bloody choice, and the Suez crisis in 1956 certainly made it clear that the UK (and France) were no superpowers and had only a very moderate independent role to play on the world stage.

Also, the stream of bad news conditioned the British to accept the surrender of the empire - IE with an increasing distaste for the sacrifices, the cost and the human rights abuses going with running such an empire.

If the Chinese have been through the same, then it has not sunk in yet - and will not do so for a time.

[quote=“Mr He”]
Also, the stream of bad news conditioned the British to accept the surrender of the empire - IE with an increasing distaste for the sacrifices, the cost and the human rights abuses going with running such an empire.

If the Chinese have been through the same, then it has not sunk in yet - and will not do so for a time.[/quote]And it will not sink in until said Chinese begin to understand what human rights actually mean, or that sacrifices borne by other people actually mean anything at all.

[quote=“hsiadogah”][quote=“Mr He”]
Also, the stream of bad news conditioned the British to accept the surrender of the empire - IE with an increasing distaste for the sacrifices, the cost and the human rights abuses going with running such an empire.

If the Chinese have been through the same, then it has not sunk in yet - and will not do so for a time.[/quote]And it will not sink in until said Chinese begin to understand what human rights actually mean, or that sacrifices borne by other people actually mean anything at all.[/quote]

Excellent arguments for the 2 above posts.

Here’s the thing though, everytime you argue with a Chinese Nationalist, you get the Ah-Q approach and they’re like “America is an Empire too! Look at Iraq and Afghanistan”.

White Mans Burden => Chinese Man’s Burden… how accurate.

Actually this is also why UK has race relation issues. Even after a few generations in the UK non-whites are not considered “authentic” British. Even among the “white” British citizens there are still ethnic stigmas. A total failure of the state at assimilation.

Whereas China has assimilated all 56 ethnic groups.

The vast majority of Tibetian enjoy living under the PRC. Compared to the Tibetian Independence groups that live outside of the PRC who have become so accultured to foriegn society that they are losing their “Tibetain” uniqueness.

Hmmm. I think you’re talking a load of Jackson Pollocks on a couple of counts.

“not considered British” by whom? Not by that many in my experience, which however limited is a little greater than yours I assume, AC.

You mention non white immigrants are not considered “authentic British” because of their ethnicity, but then in the next sentence point out the truth that there is no such thing as British ethnicity since there are ethnicities within the white British population.

Most people are well aware that there is no such thing as English or British ethinicity (though most are not aware that Churchill was half American and Brunel was half French). We are a multinational state, and we have a diverse genepool.

We take the piss out of each other a bit. Gingers get a raw deal. I have plenty of Celtic genes but thankfully not ginger hair (no offence if there’s any carrot tops out there).

We have racists and bigots in the UK. We have white supremacists. We have people who want to “send them back”. We have British Nationalists and we also have English Nationalists (as well as Scottish and Welsh nationalists, but that’s a bit different).

But for the most part, immigrants are accepted into our society as they have been for a couple of thousand years. It takes time and we have some problems along the way, but we are a nation of immigrants. Who’d want to be a pedigree with all the genetic problems they have?

That sounds suspiciously like a PRC government press release to me!

Don’t get started on homo-phobia in the UK now. :wink:

Or are you talking about a ginger minge during a one night stand. :wink:

so…where can chinese nationalistic expansion “naturally” end? xinjiang, mongolia, manchuria, siberia, korea, afghanistan, taiwan, indo-china? what is the extent of the han homeland as it is taught/indoctrinated today? please draw me a map withthe widest possible brush.

PS- i think “gingers” are red-heads

Well reading this article, it looks like the far east of Russia is about to be re-united with China in a few decades.

[quote]http://goldsea.com/Asiagate/508/23siberia.html

``Economically, they’ve already taken over,’’ he said.

Some 50,000 Chinese work legally in Russia’s Primoriye region, along the Pacific coast, but their actual number is believed to be twice that, Shinkovskiy said.

Cui Xian, or ``Igor’’ as he’s known here, waits for customers at an auto parts stall. The 20-year-old ethnic Korean came to Russia four years ago from China’s Jilin province to study but wasn’t granted a student visa. Eventually he managed to get a work visa and joined his parents, who immigrated here in 1996.

Drassav said every group that comes here asserts that the Far East should be assimilated back into China.

``All tourists say this territory was stolen from China,’’ he said. [/quote]

Now Igor is a prime example of an assimilated Korean in Chinese culture doing his part to ensure the return of Siberia to China.

PS - Ginger knob (nob) and Ginger Minge are red-heads. Not to be mixed up with gingers which are carbinated drinks. Like Ginger Beer being queer, a truly mixed up individual by conservative definition.

Actually this is also why UK has race relation issues. Even after a few generations in the UK non-whites are not considered “authentic” British. Even among the “white” British citizens there are still ethnic stigmas. A total failure of the state at assimilation.

Whereas China has assimilated all 56 ethnic groups.

The vast majority of Tibetian enjoy living under the PRC. Compared to the Tibetian Independence groups that live outside of the PRC who have become so accultured to foreign society that they are losing their “Tibetain” uniqueness.[/quote]

Assimilation this, assimilation that! What are you? The Borg?!?
Didn’t it occur to you that the Borg do not have free will? Free will allows uniqueness instead of a uniform culture code that everyone must abide by.
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Being a hard liner and partisan there is absolutely nothing the pan-Green administration can do to appease me at this time. CSB has not done 1 thing right in my opinion

Being a hard liner and partisan there is absolutely nothing the pan-Green administration can do to appease me at this time. CSB has not done 1 thing right in my opinion[/quote]

And you STILL didn’t answer the question. Actually you did by your actions. Obviously you are choosing the unsolvable path, meant to ridicule than to get anything done.