[ROC Passport] Question on Overseas Chinese Passport status


#1

If I entered Taiwan with a Overseas Taiwanese passport but want to teach English in Taiwan do I need to leave and reenter with my US passport in order to get a work permit? I do not have a Taiwan ID. And do I need to apply for a ARC if I already have a three year residence permit? Or does the employer apply a work permit for me and I can still use my three year residence permit?


#2

The answers you want are almost completely provided by Articles 67 of the relevant legislation.

Specifically, Article 67 of the ROC Immigration Law says that a Chinese person entering the ROC on a foreign passport is subject to the restrictions applying to foreigners.

Article 67 of the Employment Services Act says that foreigners, or Overseas Chinese with no ID card, do not have free work rights in the Taiwan area and their employer must apply for (and get approval for) the appropriate work permit.

Hence, it would appear that it is most proper for your (prospective) employer to make formal application with the relevant government agency for your work permit to teach English.


#3

I have some similar questions along those lines. I entered the US on an Overseas Chinese passport, but I have a Taiwan ID #. However, I do NOT have a Taiwanese ID card. Does that make any difference whatsoever when working? It shouldn’t, right?

Also, since I came in on my Taiwanese passport, and I was born in Taiwan, I am subject to army draft rules. However, I have heard that since I have Overseas Chinese status, I have 4 months to leave the country in order to be free from draft duty. However, I don’t have an official notice or anything from the army department. Does anybody know anything on this? Can I just make a visa run sorta thing to HK and back and be safe, every 4 months.

Lastly, I have an American passport, since I am an American citizen. Since I entered Taiwan on my Chinese passport, my American passport is missing an entry stamp. While Taiwan recognizes dual citizenship, the US does not, so if I’m caught missing a stamp, I could be in big trouble. However, I have heard they the Taiwanese customs will give u a makeup stamp upon leaving the country under certain circumstances. Anybody have any information on this?

Any help would be appreciated… thanks everybody!


#4
quote:
Originally posted by BaKaBaKa: Since I entered Taiwan on my Chinese passport, my American passport is missing an entry stamp. While Taiwan recognizes dual citizenship, the US does not, so if I'm caught missing a stamp, I could be in big trouble.

Contrary to what many people believe, the U.S. does recognize dual nationality (or, more precisely, doesn’t not recognize it), so don’t worry. America does insist, however, that its citizens use their U.S. passports to enter the United States, so don’t try using your ROC passport for that.

The U.S. State Department has a little about this on its site:
http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html

For lots more than most people want to know, look here:
www.webcom.com/richw/dualcit/


#5

I concur that the USA does recognize dual nationality.

For questions on the military obligations of Taiwanese males who are living or studying overseas, and/or otherwise leaving and entering the ROC area from time to time, please send a full description of your current situation and your questions to Mr. Johnny Huang at:
Parents Society of Overseas Students
tel: (02) 2826 3637
fax: (02) 2826 3738
email: psos@ms12.hinet.net


#6

I am a dual national of Taiwan and the USA. I just went back to the states this last summer (hadn’t been back for over a year), and I had no problems entering at all. I never have been questioned on my whereabouts when I’ve entered the USA.

If you have a visa for Taiwan in your US passport, and you stay within that allotted amount of time (even if you entered on your ROC passport), you can have both passports stamped when exiting Taiwan. In June, they told me I have to go to Counter #1. However, if you are outside that time limit, you cannot get both passports stamped, just the one used to enter Taiwan. I believe they changed this law sometime this year, as last year, I had no problems with having both of my passports stamped.

I have heard that you do have to leave every 4 months to avoid the compulsory military service.


#7

As a dual national, I researched this with friends and relatives in the US and Taiwan. The “consulate” in San Francisco said that it would be easy to get a passport as a overseas Citizen and then return to Taiwan to apply for the Taiwanese ID with the relevant authorities including registering the household. With the Taiwanese ID, you will be able to work and have the health insurance. If you stay in Taiwan for longer than four months, the gov’t starts counting days and then after a certain limit, you are beyond the status of overseas citizen and they draft you based on that.


#8

I’ve just graduated from college from the US and I can’t work in Taiwan bc of that two year work experience requirement they have for all bachelor degree holders. (They’re changing this law but I don’t know when it’s gonna take effect) I’ve never had a Taiwan ID since I was born in the US so if I want to apply for one I have to stay in Taiwan for a whole year which sucks because I’m not supposed to work during this period of time. With my overseas passport I was able to get a residence permit for 3 years but what good is it to be able to stay for 3 years without being able to work? In other countries if they give you a residence permit, usually you can get a work permit.

At least there’s hope with the new law that I can finally get a finance job and start working. But this waiting sucks.


#9

If you decide to apply for your ROC ID card and wait it out for a year, you can seek employment. It just won’t be legal. Taiwan thrives off of loopholes and exceptions. The smaller the company, the more likely they can get around work permit requirements. More info here

As Richard stated, the U.S. acknowledges dual nationalities. http://www.oriented.org/legal/ID-3.shtml

The U.S. doesn’t care whether or not you have an entry/exit visa stamp on your U.S. passport showing that you’ve been to Taiwan. It’s only the ROC gov. that cares how you got in and out of Taiwan. As far as the U.S. is concerned, how you get in to other countries is your problem. They just care how everyone gets into the U.S.

Likewise, whenever I enter the ROC, I use my ROC passport, which shows that I’ve gone NOWHERE many times. Just a bunch of exit and entry stamps (ROC), because I use my U.S. passport everywhere else (well almost). Similar to the above, the ROC doesn’t care how I got into the U.S. (or anywhere else). That is the recipient country’s problem.

U.S. immigration may look at your passport and ask you where you’ve been, but unless it’s listed as a hostile nation or you are a known terrorist, you’re good to go.

Remember, there are many countries that do not require U.S. citizens to have entry/exit visas to visit. When I went to Paris from London I even had to REQUEST that French immigration stamp my U.S. passport just so that I could show that I’ve been there (though I still wonder about that sometimes).


#10
quote:
As a dual national, I researched this with friends and relatives in the US and Taiwan. The "consulate" in San Francisco said that it would be easy to get a passport as a overseas Citizen and then return to Taiwan to apply for the Taiwanese ID with the relevant authorities including registering the household. With the Taiwanese ID, you will be able to work and have the health insurance. If you stay in Taiwan for longer than four months, the gov't starts counting days and then after a certain limit, you are beyond the status of overseas citizen and they draft you based on that.

Okay… so if I enter and leave, there should be no problems, right? I can do it an infinite # of times? Somewhere I read that between the ages of 15 and 45, the Taiwanese government counts the amounts of days you are in Taiwan, total. If it goes over 1 year they draft you. It sounds like something the Taiwanese government is messed up enough to pull, but then again, it sounds so unreasonable (what if you were working for over a year because of your company?) that maybe it’s not true. But I could have sworn I read it somewhere on the Taiwanese Immigration laws site.


#11

The PSOS was founded nearly 15 years ago. They have dealt with thousands of families whose sons were studying overseas and ran into various problems with entry into the ROC, exit from the ROC, and other difficulties due to their military obligations. The PSOS has held Public Hearings in the Legislative Yuan, and has received wide press coverage. They have successfully lobbied for the relaxation of some restrictions on military age youth, however there are many other restrictions which are still in force, and which they are still fighting, in order to promote their human rights agenda.

The PSOS is happy to provide a wide range of counseling services to the general public for free. If your own individual case requires specific legal action, that would be on an extra-cost basis of course. (Examples of this would be where an Overseas ROC Representative Office has refused passport renewal, or other official refusals or rejections of this type.)

I assume that the best time to contact the PSOS by telephone would be during normal working hours, or you could email them at any time.


#12
quote:
Okay... so if I enter and leave, there should be no problems, right? I can do it an infinite # of times? Somewhere I read that between the ages of 15 and 45, the Taiwanese government counts the amounts of days you are in Taiwan, total. If it goes over 1 year they draft you. It sounds like something the Taiwanese government is messed up enough to pull, but then again, it sounds so unreasonable (what if you were working for over a year because of your company?) that maybe it's not true. But I could have sworn I read it somewhere on the Taiwanese Immigration laws site.

From what I understand, you can leave and enter as many times as you want. Just as long as you do not stay beyond the 4 months. Once you stay beyond the four months, they start counting the days. I have a friend who is doing this now, he leaves the country every four months or so. Unless laws have been changed in the last few months, this is the case.


#13

Alright… So here are some new developments for all of you out there in a similar situation as I.

I was at a government office today, obtaining my Taiwanese ID Card. As I was about to apply for it, I asked the lady if obtaining an ID Card would effect my Overseas Chinese status, and cause me to lose my 4 months grace period for army duty. She suggested that I run off to the Army department office next door and ask, so that’s what I did.

The guy at the Army department told me that instead of four months, it’s only a THREE month grace period. Plus, he let me know that the government knows about how people just go in and out of the country at regular periods, just to avoid the Army, so they are CHANGING the laws to close that loophole. As I mentioned somewhere before, they are gonna change it, according to him, so that once you are of legal age to serve, 18, up to when you’re too old, 40, the number of days in spent in Taiwan will be cumulatively added up. If you spend over one year in Taiwan, cumulatively, between those ages, they will haul you off to serve in the military.

This is BAD news for we Overseas Chinese. This means that none of us could ever work here, or live with our family, or even just stay here for an extended period of time, without having to go into the army. It’s totally unreasonable, and completely stupid, in my opinion. I thought the Taiwanese government WANTED their citizens to go overseas to study and learn, then come back to apply that knownledge to help Taiwan and its economy. How are people supposed to do that when they can’t be sent back here to work by their company because they’ll be hauled off to the army if they stay too long?

I really, really hate hypocritical Chinese laws… Isn’t there any way to fight this and make sure this law does not come into being?


#14

So an already sweet deal is slightly soured? You’ve already got an automatic ID card without being required to give up your US citizenship. But if you’re not willing to fulfill your responsibilities as an ROC citizen, then don’t apply for an ROC ID. If you don’t want to be an ROC citizen, just do what all the other foreigners do and get a work permit/visa, ARC, or whatever for your teaching job.


#15

Poagao… I don’t see how “not fulfilling one’s responsibility” as a citizen of a country is any better than suggesting that one should work in any country illegally.

What BakaBaka is saying is that now that the R.O.C. gov. is changing the laws and can track (and are counting) the time that ABC men are in the country, even with the appropriate work permits as a foreigner working for a foreign firm, their stay in Taiwan is going to affect their status with the R.O.C. military.

This is two separate issues and is not fair to those sent back with their companies.

BaKaBaKa, did the individual you spoke with know when this will happen? Also, did you get a chance to speak with others? When I visited the Army dept. myself a few years back to inquire about mandatory military service for Overseas men, a got several different answers and ended up not believing any one of them, kept asking until I got a consistent 3 responses and even then didn’t feel confident in what I was being told.

Also, a local friend recently told me that there is a serious overflow problem with those who are already listed to serve. I.e., the military can’t handle the capacity of local men who need to serve and that at one point they were considering reducing the required time to serve. Obviously not a confirmed fact, but it was an interesting piece of information I heard and would seem to make their latest efforts of enlisting ABC men counterproductive.

The only division in the R.O.C. gov that can do anything about this is the Overseas Chinese Affairs Commission.


#16

You’re right, nobody should suggest doing illegal things to other people. But my point is, if you don’t want to be drafted, nobody’s forcing you to apply for an ROC ID; instead you can use your US passport and just go through the same channels as all the other foreigners in Taiwan go through and not have to worry about it.


#17

Prior to 1976, there was a military service treaty, considered a part of the Mutual Defense Treaty, which exempted ROC military servicemen from any draft laws of the USA. However, once the draft exemption as a foreign national was invoked it made them become permanently ineligible for US citizenship. There are a handful of countries with this type of agreement with the USA. It was bilateral so ABC US citizens would have perhaps been permanently barred from ROC citizenship rights, if the treaty were invoked by them. However, I don’t know about Overseas Passports. Should some parents seriously consider asking AIT to renegotiate a similiar agreement with the ROC?


#18

Here’s what I found on the US Department of State web site

===========================================
http://travel.state.gov/taiwan.html

DUAL NATIONALITY AND COMPULSORY MILITARY SERVICE: Taiwan law provides for compulsory military service. Men between the ages of 18 and 45 who were born in Taiwan or who have ever held a Taiwan passport should be aware that they may be subject to compulsory military service in Taiwan, even if they are also U.S. citizens, and even if they have entered Taiwan on U.S. passports. Affected individuals are urged to consult with the nearest office of the Taipei Economic and Cultural Office (TECO) in the United States before visiting Taiwan to determine whether they are subject to the military service requirement.


#19

The US passport has a small section on dual nationality. It basically states that the US will not be able to do anything for you while you are under the jurisdiction of the other nation. From a legal standpoint, US does not recognize Taiwan as a nation. That also means there is no way the US can legally intervine on behalf of it’s citizens in Taiwan. From a practical standpoint, the US will not get into this issue. So for ABC men, we’re left on our own to deal with the mis-information.

   What annoys me is that when you go to the OCAC, TECO, and other gov't offices to ask for information, the (usually) women treat you with disdain. They hate ABC men because we are trying to get out of serving the military. I would like to see them get drafted and see if they try to get out of military service in the ROC military.

   As for the ROC military, I personally do not wish to serve in a military that does not protect Taiwan. The top brass in the ROC military have not demonstrated their loyalties to anyone but their own pockets. Consider the many stories of retired military officers selling secrets to China, or rumors of officers who refuse to defend Taiwan because the government is lead by President Chen. In order for anyone in the miliitary to protect Taiwan in the event of a Chinese attack, they would have to kill their officers to get anything done. Stories of abuse and death of military personnell still exist. Kickback on contracts and low grade equipment like the IDF fighters. When the IDF was in development and testing, it was considered a joke. It was nickname the "I Dont Fly" fighter. 

I have heard stories in the past of people who spent their military service time being servants of retired military personell…young people serving as drivers, housekeepers, etc for retired generals. Stories like that make the local men want to escape military service also. It’s not a military, it’s just another extension of the corruption that as existed under the KMT rule for so long. This is the way that the KMT has run their military since the beginning. Who the hell wants to serve in that type of a military. I would rather join the US military to fight for Taiwan. At least I know that I can trust the officers that I serve under.


#20

I would like to discuss two issues which an earlier poster raised. First, leaving aside the rather unusual circumstances where both your parents are (a) unknown, or (b) stateless, Taiwan does not recognize citizenship according to the fact that you were born in the ROC. ROC citizenship is based on the fact that one or both of your parents were ROC citizens.

Second, the ROC has no law which requires that citizens use an ROC passport to enter and leave the ROC area. This, and other important issues related to this thread, may be found in my posting of 11-12-2001, above.