[ROC Passport] Question on Overseas Chinese Passport status

Legal Dual Nationality
21

Ok, I see your point. If you were born in Taiwan to Taiwanese parents, they don’t let you NOT be an ROC citizen…that sucks if you don’t want to be one. I don’t know what you could do to avoid military service other than just leave Taiwan.

But for ABC’s, since they weren’t born here, can’t they just not apply for IDs and live in Taiwan as US (or whatever) citizens without having to deal with military service? Since there’s no indication of your being Taiwanese, what’s stopping you from doing this?

I don’t know where MarkShih heard all of the rumors he did about the military here, but it doesn’t sound at all accurate to me. In fact, a lot of what he says is simply his own conjecture. The military has it’s fair share of problems, of course, but it’s not nearly the horror he paints it out to be.

22

RE: Problems in the ROC Military Establishment, see these references:
Questions arise anew on loyalty of armed forces
http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2002/01/09/story/0000119198
Loyalty of the military was brought into question before the presidential elections two years ago. People also had to consider the loyalty of the military when they were selecting a president. It was not until the military came out and said that they would support whomever came into power that the people gave that consideration a little bit less weight.

IDF fighter history is contained in the following story.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2000/07/15/story/0000043818

For info about corruption in the military, just look at the recent scandal on the Lafayette cruiser deal. Kickbacks for the military brass and contractors. Dead soldier’s body float in the water.

The part about military personell working as servants in homes of retired generals was from a person I met in “Love Boat” program eight years ago whose grandfather was a retired admiral in the ROC Navy. His driver was a military personell, his house was staffed with military personell. This is a RETIRED admiral, not an active admiral. This is fact not conjecture.

The ROC navy currently uses two Dutch made Zwaardvis-class submarine and two Guppie class US WWII diesel submarines. Some of those subs are reported to be non-operational. These are some very low grade weapons.

The US sent over a lot of aid to the KMT during WWII and most of that was pocketed by the top brass in the KMT military. There is also reports about how the military at the time was using “human wall” tactics in warfare that showed bad military strategy and that the current military thinking has not changed much from that. It treats soldiers as expendible and abundent supply instead of using effective military tactics.

This is not my conjecture, this is based on a lot of stories you hear through out the years in Taiwan. You also have to realize that before the 1990’s, the truth in Taiwan only existed in the shadows. The government and the main stream press did not give people the truth. The truth came from people who witnessed it and pass along the infomation among each other like rumors. These stories contain some rumors and some facts. With Taiwan’s history the way it is, I tend to believe the rumors. The real truth about the military will come out when China attacks and I really hope that never happens.

23

Ok, the Taipei Times’ conjecture then. Same thing. You give as evidence one story about some rumors which is obviously part of the Time’s political agenda, another story about how the IDF is a reliable fighter jet even though Chen once called it “I don’t fly”, and one of your friends from the “Love Boat” talked about soldiers acting as help for a retired general, probably a cushier assignment than most soldiers have access to. Then you state that current military thinking hasn’t changed since the early part of the last century without anything to back that up. Not to mention your allegation that soldiers will have to kill their officers in the event of a mainland attack. Yeah, right.

Believe in rumors if you like, but like you say, facts come from people who witnessed it, and if I am not mistaken, you have never served in the ROC military. It has its problems, but it isn’t exactly the hellhole you make it out to be.

One thing I think we both agree on, however, is our hope that the PLA never attacks.

24

From American Institute in Taiwan web page

Compulsory Military Service in Taiwan
Updated: July 2001
http://ait.org.tw/ait/TSS/ACS/military.html

Male Taiwan citizens who are not in “Overseas Chinese” status are liable for military service if they return to Taiwan between the ages of 18 and 45.
Those with “Overseas Chinese” status are also subject to military service UNLESS they departed Taiwan before age 15 and (1) never returned for a visit of more than four months and (2) shorter visits do not total more than one year.
Individuals who may be affected by this law should contact the nearest TECO/TECRO office for details. Dual nationals currently in Taiwan can contact the Overseas Chinese Affairs Commission at 02-3343-2600 or write them at 15F, #5 Hsu Chou St., Taipei for more information.

Possession of U.S. citizenship does not prevent Taiwan citizens from being subject to this law. In general, if an individual is considered to be a Taiwan citizen at birth, he retains that status even after acquiring U.S. citizenship. Under Taiwan law, he may not renounce his Taiwan citizenship until after age 45.

It should be noted that such laws are not unique to Taiwan. South Korea, Greece, and Israel, for example, have similar laws that subject returning dual nationals to compulsory military service. The United States Government cannot protect dual nationals from compulsory military service.

25

Re: The proposed law of tracking your time in the R.O.C. even if one entered with a foreign passport…

I personally don’t think this will get passed, because those who would be most affected would be those politicians themselves!

So many of them have family and relatives with dual nationalities, I just can’t imagine that the politicians would pass ANY law that would negatively impact their own families (boys). I’m speculating, but still…

Before even MORE speculations are made… does anyone have a copy of that proposed law so that we can go over it ourselves?

Maybe we can post it up here and address each issue accordingly, instead of debating with each other about each other’s speculations… not a very efficient use of our time (or bandwidth, lol). Poagao is right in pointing out that much of what we’ve been talking about is speculation.

Re: the statements that returning nationals just shouldn’t return to avoid being drafted or ABC men should simply use their foreign passports when entering the R.O.C…

I have to agree both suggestions, but the thing is… IF the laws about serving the military were crystal clear about this requirement, then there wouldn’t be so much frustration.

What CONFUSES people though, are the totally convoluted and ever-changing provisions by both the OCAC and the Military dpt. that state that military service CAN be avoided under certain circumstances and for certain people. It’s this part that needs clarification.

Suggestions: … on my part, I will ask the ONE person I know from the OCAC to take a look at these boards and hope that it will raise some attention. Small step… but better than nothing.

Richard and other folks, do you know of other people/groups whom we can approach? Also, can we get one of the papers to write an article about this mess? The more exposure, the better.

26

Over the past few years, I have spent a lot of time reading Administrative Court decisions and Supreme Court decisions here in the ROC. One thing that strikes you very clearly is the judges’ consistent upholding of the principle that if you want to restrict someone’s rights, or to assess him/her with various legal obligations, such an action has to be based on a specifically worded law. It cannot be based on an administrative regulation, a memo, a meeting, an interpretative letter, etc., etc. There is also a Central Legal Standard Law that states this in Article 5.

If you look at a lot of “regulations” (or “pronouncements”) of the OCAC, MOI, MOFA, etc. about the rights and obligations of ROC males of military age, including passport renewal, classification of who is an “overseas Chinese”, when they have to “leave”, when they have to “come back”, etc. the majority of these are not laws (i.e. they have not been passed by the Legislative Yuan and promulgated by the President). Hence, they may be successfully challenged in the courts.

In my impression, most of the issues brought up in this thread have been discussed for decades (the situation used to be much worse that it is now), and yet there are actually very few cases on record where the affected individuals have gone to court.

Suffice it to say that persons with far better oratory skills than you or I have debated these issues at length in years past. Further discussion is really pointless. What the affected individuals need to do is to find informed legal counsel and institute the appropriate legal actions to demand that they be treated fairly under the LAW, and that all these extraneous restrictions and pronouncements be cancelled.

As a closing comment, if the “legal counsel” or other legally knowledgeable people you are talking to state that you cannot sue the OCAC, MOI, MOFA, etc., then please be aware that they are seriously misinformed.

27

It’s true, the regulations should be more clearly stated. However I think everyone here knows that this just isn’t the way things work in Taiwan, so I don’t know how likely it is that the issue will ever be stated in a definitive manner.

I agree that the service ladies at certain government offices should be polite and helpful, and able to state unequivocally exactly what the rules are. However, I can also understand why the hold a certain disdain for people who are trying to obtain all of the priveledges of ROC citizenship while managing to avoid the responsibilities. Perhaps these women all have husbands, brothers, and sons who have served, are serving or will serve, and maybe they don’t understand why ABC’s are exempt. I know that certain foreigners on this board don’t understand why ABC’s can keep dual citizenship while those who don’t happen to be of Chinese ethnicity are required to renounce their original citizenship.

However Christine has a point that government officials will likely do what is going to most benefit them and their families personally. That, after all, is their highest concern and they are rather predictible as far as that goes.

28
quote:
Originally posted by Poagao: However, I can also understand why the hold a certain disdain for people who are trying to obtain all of the priveledges of ROC citizenship while managing to avoid the responsibilities.

I don’t necessarily think it’s fair for those who have this exemption to be accused of avoiding their responsibilities yet reaping benefits… etc.

First, this is (or was) a provision that was offered to them.

If anything, the disdain should be directed towards the gov. body that offered this provision.

Second, keep in mind what the intent of the provision was to begin with. It wasn’t to allow ABC men to avoid the military for avoidance’ sake – the implication being that they are “spoiled brats” who are given unfair privileges – but rather, to give them incentive to leave their “home” countries to return to Taiwan for Taiwan’s economic/political benefit without being susceptible to getting drafted.

Whether or not they actually add value is for another discussion, but the blanket accusation of their being “irresponsible citizens of the R.O.C.” is not justified.

The R.O.C. gov. may feel that it’s the other way around, as might those ABC men who have returned with the sincere intention of contributing to the economic growth of Taiwan. Not to say that ALL who return are coming for such lofty purposes, but that the above quote is not a fair comment to make.

If anything, this ORIENTED website is becoming a more permanent resource for those who are unfamiliar with the whole mess and who may not have been around to hear previous discussions that took place prior to this forum.

Thus the essence of the value of this website.

29

Selective Service Administration states that a there is a Taiwan-USA treaty on the “exemption” from military service in the USA. One must be an “alien” and the granting of the exemption is a permanent bar to US citizenship. How about the Taiwan situation as there must the treaty right equivalent for US citizens (aliens) in Taiwan?

The Overseas Chinese status must be covered by treaty.

  1. Treaty alien (Class 4-T)

To qualify for Class 4-T, a registrant must be an alien who is a national of one of the following countries:

Argentina
Austria
Costa Rica
Estonia
Honduras
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Liberia
Norway
Paraguay
Spain
Switzerland
Taiwan
Yugoslavia

He must make application for relief from military training and service in the Armed Forces of the United States. If this claim is granted, the registrant will be exempt from military training and service in the Armed Forces of the United States. However, he will be henceforth barred from United States citizenship after being classified as a treaty alien.

[url=http://www.sss.gov/regist%20information.htm#2.

30

What is all this talk about asking government officials for information? Based on my personal experience there is about 80% chance that the information will be wrong.

31

Military urged to change warfare tactics
http://www.taiwanheadlines.gov.tw/19991110/19991110p5.htm

32

If you already have work experience you should just apply for a work permit. You wouldn’t want to waste two years in the army.

It’s ironic that I can stay in Taiwan with my US passport but my friends who all have Taiwanese passports and are afraid of going to the army all are living abroad.

33

Here’s another update to my ordeal with the army department.

I went to the Overseas Chinese office. I got them to give me the applicable laws on paper, so now I’ve got it in black and white. I’ll try to post it up sometime, but it’s in Mandarin, and I’m not sure if my Chinese is good enough for translating legal language… Anybody want a hack at it? [Moderator’s note: it appears that what you were given were “administrative regulations” and not “laws”. There is a huge difference between the two.]

Anyways… basically, here’s the deal. If you stay for OVER four months 3 times in your lifetime, they WILL haul you off to the army (with some exceptions). If you stay for over a year straight just ONCE, they will haul you off to the army. There are some exceptions… one of them says if you invest over $100,000 US in Taiwan, you are exempt. I found that hilarious, as it states in an obvious manner, a way for you to buy your way out of the duty. Damn we Chinese are corrupt.

As stated in previous posts, if you don’t violate any of these terms, you’re free to come and go in Taiwan as you please, after you complete the required Overseas Chinese paperwork, which I’m currently doing. The status is in effect for one year, and allows you to come to Taiwan whenever you please, as long as you leave within four months (they told me NOT to cut the four months dates close… leave at least a week early so they can’t do things like “Oh you stayed over four months if we count it using a 30 day cycle”).

So yay… phew… according to current law, I’m home free as long as I make a visa run every four months or so… weeeeee! yay!!!

34

As Christine & Richard know, I have been researching this for ages (because it’s happened to me) and have found no quick solution. Anyhow, here are hopefully some clear facts for dual nationals (ROC citizen and also a foreign citizen):

  1. Taiwan recognizes dual nationality. Therefore, it is possible for you to possess a Taiwanese ID and an ARC at the SAME TIME. In sum, you can be two people at once!!! In other words, it’s quite possible to pay taxes, marry, and work as two people at once. [Moderator’s note: Article 30 of the Immigration Law forbids this.]

  2. PASSPORTS. It’s possible to be a ROC citizen (even with a Taiwanese ID) and come to Taiwan with a foreign passport to work as a foreigner without having to go to the army. I know many, many people who are doing it simply because the government is too moronic to link up the passports. This especially holds true if you received your foreign passport AFTER you received your ROC passport. In other words you could be SCOT-FREE. [Moderator’s note: the government is in the process of linking the computer records up, and people are being drafted.]

The law that links up your passport: Military Law (or something akin to it) Article 48 Regulation Article 14. Here’s a great link: http://www.geocities.com/twnwoc/english.html for more laws and some pro-independence propoganda.

  1. I have not heard of the 3 months “new law”. Just call the OCAC, very easy. However, I have heard of the “cumulative law” that counts up the days until 365 but I was informed that it only applied to those born in 1982 and later.

If this were to apply now, 99% of the Overseas Chinese would be in deep trouble if they came back to Taiwan, and they wouldn’t even know it!