quote[quote] Regarding the number of tones in Cantonese, I understand the existence of 9 as opposed to 7 tones is hotly debated. Like maybe the difference between tone 6 and tone 9 (I just made those numbers up) is really only detectable amongst old fishermen from Lantau Island or whatever. (Bu Lai En) [/quote]
Hotly debated? ![]()
Amongst whom would that be?
AAh…The people who “invent” or try to improve on these pinyin systems of course!
It is the year 2020:
" Wouldn’t it be nice to have a pinyin system after me? "
(Bu En Lai is heard saying to his friends at age 60 just before retirement and after long service in Taiwan as Education Minister.)
“I have seen the awful TongYong come and go, people have long discarded zhuyinfuhao for the Hanyu Pinyin and Taiwanese as a dialect is no longer spoken amongst the younger generation"
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It is the year 2060:
Some New Zealanders in China are overheard saying;
“Hey I use the BuYinLai system you know, its better than the ChouEnLai system from China, I mean the mainland pobomofo ?..”
“And BuEnLai’s daughter has actually written a dictionary using this BuYinLai system. It’s better for foreigners you know because it only uses two tones as opposed to the normal four. The third is optional whilst the fourth is neutral”
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Getting back to present time:
According to one book I glanced at quickly about Cantonese this “redundancy ” you refer to: 7 instead of 9 tones; this is most likely the first two tones which are supposedly interchangeable (aka High Level and High Falling ), and also the middle crossed tones (aka Middle Rising and Low Rising) because the latter are “parallel ” but different pitched.
If you are only familiar with the Hanyu Pinyin for Mandarin, my own explaination is: think of it as the hanyu pinyin first tone (Yin Ping) but which varies in absolute pitch with each individual speaker’s voice. Since Female voices are higher pitched generally than males, Females would presumably prefer the higher pitch (High Level) tone. This leaves the High Falling to the male. I think it is sort of like accommodating for sex differences in the speakers; this is my guess.
But the book disagrees and says these differences are most pronounced between Cantonese spoken in Guangdong (High Falling) and that spoken in Hong Kong which supposedly uses the flat High Level tone.
Having been here and Guangdong before, several times,I disagree with the book. I personally cannot detect any such local differences between these two places. One reason may be that Guangdong residents already watch enough TV from Hong Kong such that any differences if any are already much ‘ironed out’by now. In the past maybe without so much TV and frequent travel between these two cities, these so called regional differences could have remained intact.
Question: Do you know why in Mandarin the 2nd tone is called the “Male Flat” (Yang Ping)?
Answer: That’s because most males can’t do it a SECOND time!!! ha ha ha! (JOKE) ![]()
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A similar situation exists with the number of tones in Taiwanese.
(Bu Lai En)
My Taiwanese is baby speak. Can’t comment on Taiwanese. Can’t even order food in Taiwanese. I just know there is too many variations in FuJian Hua to be worth bothering.
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BTW ask most Cantonese speakers how many tones are in their language and they can’t tell you. (Bu Lai En)
With this last sentence you have " hit the nail on the head " so to speak. It is possible to speak/even sing Cantonese beautifully without ever understanding the number of tones that each dialect is suppose to operate under.
On a recent TV documentary I have actually seen beijingers able to speak Cantonese almost flawlessly and with less accent than those “waiguoren” formally educated at a university using the Yale Pinyinisation system.
I deliberately picked beijingers because northerners are supposed to have immense problems with this southern dialect and vice versa. I have also seen a tour guide in Guilin (in GuangXi) do this and Cantonese is not his mother tongue.
Another prime example is Wang Fei who is a very famous singer from Beijing as you know. She can sing in Cantonese like a “native” and beat the Hong Kong Canto-pop stars at their own game. When asked to speak everyday sentences, she can only manage a few phrases.
I am not sure which is harder singing or speaking.
This begs the question what is a pinyin system for except as an aid for the “waiguoren” like us to learn Chinese in his own somewhat peculiar way. But the importance of pinyin is sometimes too over rated.
I’ve been trying out this forum’s writing tool. It is really good I think better than some other forums. Apart from the pictures you can Edit until you are personally satisfied.
Must end here. Today is National Day in China. (1st October 2001) as well as Mid-Autumn Festival together.( Double Hapiness day)
Happy National Day or Mid-Autumn Festival to all…
I forgot this is a Taiwanese website. I can get into trouble for wishing National Day!!!
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Well in that case >>> ![]()
eek!