Juba, I’m with you. Pick one system and stick with it. But why such a debate over WHICH one?
The infighting on the Minanyu proposal is seen here,
http://tw.news.yahoo.com/2002/07/15/leisure/ftv/3382127.html
I’m at the point where I firmly believe that this whole thing is simply a sham put on by the DPP to show how they can shove the people of Taiwan around. There is no reason why the people of Taiwan even care about romanization because they sure as heck don’t use it.
Yeah, that’s probably true, not only with the pinyin issue but the new bank notes, various re-namings of things, etc. It’s the old dynastic mindset come back to haunt us.
What is a bit surprising is how the papers seem to be embracing the nonsense. In today’s Taipei Times, they trotted out the same old fallacies in their article on Tongyong, saying “Hanyu Pinyin, the system used in China” (not mentioning that it’s the international standard) and of course the old saw “The system has about 85 percent of the spellings used in Hanyu Pinyin.”
“The primary differences between the two are that Tongyong uses “s,” “c” and “jh,” which corresponds more with English spelling habits, instead of the “x,” “q,” and “zh” used in Hanyu, which English speakers without Mandarin skills cannot usually pronounce.”
No “claimed” or “said” or any attribution at all, of course.
The Post’s
article at least had some commentary by Jeff Locker, who for some reason was talking about the issue last night on TV. Some of the noteworthy comments:
“But according to Tsao Feng-fu, director of the MPC, almost 99 percent of foreigners had no Mandarin skills and only wanted a romanization system that would be consistent islandwide.
‘When in Taiwan, do as the Taiwanese do,’ Tsao added.”
99% of foreigners in Taiwan have no Mandarin skills? Where’d he get that figure?
As for doing what the Taiwanese do: yeah, all foreigners should just learn Chinese characters so that we don’t need a pesky romanization system at all, dammit!
In other words, start randomly romanizing words with whatever system I invent?
I think something else escaped the council’s notice. Taiwan uses the SAME spelling of English words that China uses! Did no one tell them? Taiwan obviously needs to invent a system of spelling English that is different from those Communist bastards, and that shows Taiwan’s unique cultural traits and national identity. Granted, 99% of English words are spelled the same around the world, even including US vs. England spelling, but that’s not the point – It’s the same system CHINA uses. So we should invent a similar system, but a system in which around 15% of words are spelled slightly different (more like 40% in acutality). An added advantage is that you could use this system to write French and Portuguese, and even native Mauritian (we feel they demand we invent a romanization system for them as well). Oh, and each city and county should be able to spell things differently as they see fit.
Thank goodness for certain aware individuals like myself who can alert the government so they can prevent what would be a national catastrophe if the public ever found out. They should form a committee right away to deal with this issue, but should not decide anything until they are certain of the decision (which should take a few years at the least). Any leader of the council that has a differing opinion on the issue should be kicked out immediately. Further, we should not consult native English speakers to help us, as we know best, and they’ll be able to figure out what we write eventually anyways.
Can you think of the consequences if we used the same system China uses? There’d be riots, rebellions, dogs and cats living together…
(now about that pesky metric system mainland uses…)
I would also propose reversing the values of the digits “8” and “9”. “8” looks more complete due to it’s full-figure than it’s top heavy cousin “9”, therefore it is only right that it’s numeric value be greater also. Furthermore, 80% integrity would still be preserved with the rest of the world, so noone will laugh at us. Right?
Let’s encourage Mayor Ma to “put up or shut up” on the romanization issue. He claims to be a supporter of hanyu pinyin. So, I would like to start a letter writing campaign encouraging Ma Ying-jeou to change the spelling of his name to proper hanyu pinyin: Ma Ying-jiu. Mayor Ma can set an example AND prove his sincerity.
I encourage visitors to this forum to contact the following person in the Mayor’s office, and express your support for Mayor Ma on this issue and to encourage Mayor Ma to make the gesture of correcting the spelling of his name:
Ms. Jasmine C.R. Wu
Group Chief
Protocal Office
International Relations Committee
Taipei City Government
E-mail: aa-jasmine@serv2.tcg.gov.tw
Tel: 2725-6109
Fax: 2759-8992
Though if anyone does write to encourage Ma to use proper Hanyu pinyin, you’re probably best using proper Hanyu pinyin to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Bu Lai En: Well I sent a letter to the Taipei Times (for what it's worth, I doubt they'll print it - maybe I should send to the other two rags, but I'm too lazy to search for their e-mail addresses).
Please send email to both of the following to get your letter published in TAiwan News. (If TT did not print it already)
Brian Rams.
Since TT long since closed the door on the debate the News would be happy if you sent your letter to editor@etaiwannews.com editor@etaiwannews.com
Please don’t bother mayor Ma, he has said that he has no warm feeling
for X, Q etc. however he is doing as we told him and implementing the
signs. Respect his own personal choices unless you intend to order
people to change their names if your plan is put in place. You don’t
mention the education minister Jong-… Anyways, as I can’t ever
remember most of Ma’s etc. special spellings, I use hanyu pinyin
anyway, sorry Ma.
By the way, without a dictionary to its name, how do I know Tongyong
isn’t a sham? If I go to a rent-a-car place and they don’t even have
a parking lot…
quote:
Originally posted by lcn: I would like to start a letter writing campaign encouraging Ma Ying-jeou to change the spelling of his name to proper hanyu pinyin: Ma Ying-jiu.
That would be Ma Yingjiu, without the hyphen, actually. If you are thinking of harassing Mayor Ma, you certainly have chosen the wrong target. He is doing his best, poor man. What makes him so popular is also his greatest weakness - he tries to be nice to everybody.
Nobody seems to have noticed that Chen Shui-bian surrendered his name to the dreaded commie spelling long ago - except for that silly little Wade-Giles-style hyphen.
Ju-ba
Ok fellas, I guess I had better come out and admit it. Actually, it
was I who influenced many of Tongyong Pinyin’s critical changes:
http://jidanni.org/lang/pinyin/index.html#my_influence
Well even in the most populous country, where I am now, there are some vestiges of older systems. Apostropies etc - but most is very consistent.
Interestingly, most banks use traditional chinese for “yin” as in “yin hang” on their signs.
And NJStar is great - two clicks and it converts the entire screen and document from simplified to tradition chinese or vice versa.
quote:
Originally posted by rian: ...vestiges of older systems. Apostropies etc.
Apostrophes are needed in Hanyu pinyin when a syllable that is not the first syllable in a word begins with an A or an E. This may not be the exact rule - it is necessary in order to clarify the division between syllables.
Example: Xi’an (city in Shan3xi Province)
Ren’ai (name of a road and a hospital in Taibei)
Does anybody know the exact rule - e.g. is it really needed in the word Tian’anmen, given that there is no such syllable as tia? How about this: hot milk = renai or re’nai? This is a fiddle - I can imagine how the people on the committee that formulated Hanyu pinyin must have fretted about it, but couldn’t think of any other way to do it.
It is not needed in Tiananmen. The rule is simply that the apostrophe is placed to mark off two distinct syllables - it is to avoid confusion. The example of Xi’an and xian is a good one. In xian, the apostrophe is not placed because the final sound is ian. In Xi’an the two characters, and therefore the two syllables are separated.
quote:
Originally posted by Juba:That would be Ma Yingjiu, without the hyphen, actually. If you are thinking of harassing Mayor Ma, you certainly have chosen the wrong target. He is doing his best, poor man. What makes him so popular is also his greatest weakness - he tries to be nice to everybody.
Nobody seems to have noticed that Chen Shui-bian surrendered his name to the dreaded commie spelling long ago - except for that silly little Wade-Giles-style hyphen.
Ju-ba
Hee hee… That Chen Shuibian is Tongyong as much as it is Hanyu Juba
Sima Wei
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Jacobson: Ok fellas, I guess I had better come out and admit it. Actually, it was I who influenced many of Tongyong Pinyin's critical changes: [url=http://jidanni.org/lang/pinyin/index.html#my_influence]http://jidanni.org/lang/pinyin/index.html#my_influence[/url]
I don’t have the time to weed through all of this Chinese, Dan, but if what you say is true, then you’ve made it possible for a lot of key players to be able to stomach Tongyong.
Check you email. I’d like you to call me.
quote:
Originally posted by Mo' Joe: I've never been able to understand this obsession with romanization. Anyone who uses it is going to pronounce everything wrong whether you say [i]xao[/i] or [i]shao[/i], [i]bei[/i] or [i]pei[/i] or anything else, for that matter. I say just pick one, and stick with it. Doesn't really matter how incorrect it is. The people who are going to actually learn how to speak Chinese are [b]hopefully[/b] gonna learn how to speak correctly, anyway. And if you're using romanization to learn Chinese, I think you're making a mistake. Your pre-conception of what the letters are [i]supposed[/i] to sound like is just going to confuse you. I'd learn Bo Po Mo Fo if I were you. (Or is it Be Pe Me Fe?) It's a hell of a lot easier associating new sounds with new characters than trying to change the sounds assigned to characters you grew up using a certain way.
Wow… it’s really that simple! Just PICK ONE… why didn’t I think of that!
The latest travesty from the Times (‘Minister of education gets an `A’ for political acumen’)in support of Tongyong contains these wonderful quotes:
“Though many criticized Huang’s announcement as an attempt to “court the opponents,” the Liberty Times reporter disagreed. She said the move revealed the minister’s political acumen.”
Wow, your reporter agrees! So much for objectivity, that is, if the TT ever had any.
Caption: “Minister of Education Huang Jong-tsun is regarded as a skilled politician.”
By our reporter, of course.
“How the professor-turned-minister managed to resolve this touchy political matter is just another example demonstrating his well-rounded personality.”
And they couldn’t forget the piece de resistance:
“The two systems are 85 percent similar.”
Yeah, keep reporting the lie over and over; hopefully people will believe you.
I’ve seen some bad, irresponsible ‘reporting’ from all the papers here, but this has got to be the worst.