Routine discrimination against ABCs

Discussion Open Forum
1

I would like to know why is there so much discrimination against ABCs?

On the one hand, you are expected to speak Chinese and to act like the Chinese and if you do not, then you are criticised. On the other hand, even if you are sensitive to Chinese culture, when people hear your accent, they expect you to show the kind of insensitivity that foreigners often show to local customs.

Instead of having a foot in both cultures being a help to finding a job, it is a block to finding a job.

Instead of ABCs being seen as a more exotic version of each culture, they are seen as a watered-down version of each culture.

I think it must be far easier to be a pure foreigner in Taiwan than an ABC. In that way, there is no expectation that you should behave in a sensitive way. Its like starting from a low base. But for ABCs, well, there is a real obstacle to get past and it makes life and career twice as hard.

2

Guest,

No real answers for you, but my husband feels the same way. Are you new here? I think it just takes a little time to get established. It took us about six months to get comfortable. My husband moved to the US when he was just 1 year old, and grew up in California. Even worse, I gather, is that he spoke more Taiwanese than Mandarin when we got here 3 years ago, and he sometimes just avoided trying to speak it at all. So if you speak Mandarin (and not Taiwanese), then you’re even better off than he was three years ago.

Jennifer

3

Look on the bright side. Once you do learn Chinese (and you shouldn’t view not being expected to learn it as a perk), people won’t still react as if a dog had started talking to them.

Also, you’re allowed to have dual citizenship, both ROC and USA, and you don’t even have to be in the military if you are a woman or leave the island every four months. Less visa hassles. No clerks running away from you when you enter a store. You can get whatever kind of job you like, not just teaching English. All because you’re an American who Looks Chinese.

4

Sure you get some stuff going against you as an ABC in Taiwan, but there’s also a lot of stuff going for ABC’s here. Yeah, it sucks trying to get a teaching job at places that gladly hire Eastern Europeans with barely passable English but won’t consider an ABC with native English and an English degree. On the other hand, you’re every Taiwanese parent’s dream: Asian enough to have people trying to set you up with their daughters, but western enough to have the whole foreigner “cool” factor going for you with the girls themselves.

Some good, some bad. But I would hardly characterize it as a “Oh, pity me…look how I am suffering” situation.

5

I second that. In fact, by global standards, no foreigner here - with the possible exception of some of the SE Asian laborers - has anything to complain about. We get fed, housed, get the odd day off, and there’s something like the rule of law here.

My wife (a Taiwanese) has just started teaching English. Barely half way through the first class with a bunch of teenage students, the kids told her they didn’t like their foreign teacher, a North American of Asian descent, because he wasn’t white.

But as Poagao says, looking non-Chinese has the odd disadvantage. It’s interesting to see that, while quite a few Taiwanese have no problems dealing with a foreign speaking Chinese, and treat him/her like a human, quite a few simply can’t. But that in itself can be an advantage. If I want to do something a little naughty, I just do it, knowing probably no one will challenge me. And if they do, I admire them for their relative gutsiness, and happily stop breaking the rules/etiquette.

Why is it that in mainland China, which is supposedly much less developed than Taiwan, people are far less afraid of foreigners, and much less likely to freak when a non-Asian speaks Mandarin (even bad Mandarin)?

Could it be, like the Communists allege, that Taiwanese are completely in the thrall of the Western world (US especially), and have no self-respect?

6

[quote=“down south”]Why is it that in mainland China, which is supposedly much less developed than Taiwan, people are far less afraid of foreigners, and much less likely to freak when a non-Asian speaks Mandarin (even bad Mandarin)?

Could it be, like the Communists allege, that Taiwanese are completely in the thrall of the Western world (US especially), and have no self-respect?[/quote]

Sorry, but my experiences are totally different. I lived in two places in Mainland China, Tianjin and Shanghai, and I’ve travelled a lot. I never came across a Chinese in the PRC who just took it lightly when we started talking mandarin but instead they would always freak out even when we only said the number of the floor we wanted to get to in the elevator. Others just wouldn’t answer but mutter to themselves in (for us intelligible) Chinese that they didn’t speak “waiguoyu”, while their neighbour had perfectly understood what we wanted.

I think people here are far more easy-going with foreigners who speak Chinese. And I’ve always felt that the self-respect thing applied far more to Mainland Chinese (except for those “There’s no thing like China”-types, of course).

That’s just my 1 NT$.

Iris

7

The other day while waiting for the train back to Taipei, I was talking to my friend (who is also ABC) in English when a local guy near us started to STARE at us with a stupid grin on his face to the point where I turned to him and said in Chinese, “Ni yo shenme shi…”

I suppose if I had said it nicely, it would have translated to mean, “Can I help you with something.” But the way I wanted him to interpret it was, “What the hell do you want, you FREAK!”

He of course (of course!) smiled mockingly and said, “Oh nothing… you’re not Taiwanese are you…” and moved in to start a discussion which I readily Heismanned with, “I’m sorry but we are in the middle of the conversation… if you don’t mind…” and motioned for him to please leave us alone.

You know what he did?

He said in Chinese, “Oh sure, no problem,” turned his back on us (which was a good thing), and then BACKED INTO US in order to continue listening in on our conversation!

Normally I would just ignore stupid shit like this and get on with it but every… now… and… then… it just pisses the shit out of me. I do not appreciate being treated as if I am not a human being but rather a SPECTACLE of some sort that doesn’t deserve the right to personal space and privacy which of course leads to a whole nother discussion, etc.

Having said all of that – talking about making a short story long – I tend to think that REGARDLESS of ethnic background (Chinese American, 100% Taiwanese, Western Caucasian, etc.), God is fair. There is an equal number of pluses and minuses to being all of the above (just different) depending on the situation, and it is up to you how you choose to take advantage of the situation (or not).

As an ABC who doesn’t speak Mandarin fluently, I’ve probably experienced the whole range of negatives as described above, but like Poagao pointed out, there are a lot of advantages of being ABC as well and the list is equally long.

It’s hard to DEAL sometimes with the negatives and oh yeah they definitely abound – the real fun begins when your own ABC peers who speak Mandarin much better than you start to be condescending to you and YOU can’t say, “Dood, don’t start comparing else I’m going to point out that at least MY mom speaks English fluently and um… what about yours?”) – but over time as you adjust to your new identity (ABC in Taiwan versus ABC in the U.S.), you learn to appreciate your position (disposition?) and if you’re smart, will use all of it to your advantage.
:wink:

8

[quote=“Christine”]
Having said all of that – talking about making a short story long – I tend to think that REGARDLESS of ethnic background (Chinese American, 100% Taiwanese, Western Caucasian, etc.), God is fair. There is an equal number of pluses and minuses to being all of the above (just different) depending on the situation, and it is up to you how you choose to take advantage of the situation (or not).

As an ABC who doesn’t speak Mandarin fluently, I’ve probably experienced the whole range of negatives as described above, but like Poagao pointed out, there are a lot of advantages of being ABC as well and the list is equally long.

:wink:[/quote]

Hear hear Christine, fully back you on that one there. And “Guest”, it does take some time to adapt to life here, but from my experience, ABC, BBC, CBC or ‘foreign Chinese’ really do have a foot in both cultures, because of that are ‘sought after’ for that advantage here in Taiwan.

Once, I had two colleagues at the same company, who were classmates in highschool, but one went to the States for her Bachelor’s because she did not pass the college entrance exams, and the other passed the exams and graduated from a top 3 Taiwan university. The one with a US degree applied at the same time at my company with the other Taiwan degree holder, and managed to get around 80% more salary! All because my foreign boss deemed it higher in merit, because of her ‘foreign’ experience.

Myself, I am definitely sticking around here since, if I was back in Europe, no matter how good you speak the local lingo–you are rarily considered a senior position. And it does not help that every year hundreds of Mainland Chinese illegally come over to seek their fortune. A Chinese there, 2nd or 3rd generation, looks no different than one ‘fresh of the boat’.

So “guest” best advise is to not get yourself sucked into ‘just’ teaching English, but try to go for a position at a multinational. But at minimum, you need to know Mandarin.

9

My favorite ABC story is when I called in to answer an ad for a bushiban. I spoke Chinese and was told they didn’t hire ABCs, only white people. When I told her I WAS white, she said, “Well then how come you can speak Chinese?”

10

Or my old ABC roommate who was turned down from bushibans despite his graduating from Duke university and the HARVARD graduate school of education and three years teaching experience back in the states…

But he IS of Chinese descent, so I’m sure his English ain’t as guud as mine. :unamused:

11

[quote=“Christine”]The other day while waiting for the train back to Taipei, I was talking to my friend (who is also ABC) in English when a local guy near us started to STARE at us with a stupid grin on his face to the point where I turned to him and said in Chinese, “Ni yo shenme shi…”
Normally I would just ignore stupid shit like this and get on with it but every… now… and… then… it just pisses the shit out of me. I do not appreciate being treated as if I am not a human being but rather a SPECTACLE of some sort that doesn’t deserve the right to personal space and privacy which of course leads to a whole nother discussion, etc.[/quote]

Yeah, fair enough. Now imagine lots of people reacting to you the same way, not just when they notice you speaking English, but every time they see you. Looking non-Chinese guarantees a spectacle in many situations here, although mostly in places foreigners frequent, oddly enough. And being expected to speak Chinese is not discrimination. In my opinion, it’s not too much to expect all foreigners, no matter what they look like, to speak at least passable Chinese.

I was talking to one old guy one day who took one look at me and decided that he couldn’t understand me, much to the amusement of everyone else in the room, who could tell that I have little or no accent. Eventually he got the point, though. This is why I should conduct more of my business by phone I guess. I suppose we all have our problems.

12

Oh believe me… I got plenty of that but the other way around, growing up in America’s deep south as a Chinese-looking person. You ain’t the only victim Poagao though at times I can’t but think that YOU think you are! :wink:

I completely agree and don’t think too highly of those who don’t bother to learn the local language no matter where they are, but discrimination was not my point so much that those who’ve had the PRIVILEGE to speak it while growing up at home would dare to look down upon those who don’t but who endeavor to try to learn.

Hmmm… hope that made sense… :laughing:

13

If we take Christine’s argument to the logical conclusion, then it’s one thing to spreak Chinese well … but you didn’t EVEN START on the looks yet. Get your hair straightened and dyed black. Go get eye surgery. Spend more time in the sun. How can you assimilate if you don’t conform?

14

That reminds me…

I gotta tell ya… as much as I love my friends… the ones that have been in Taiwan a really long time who never bother to learn to speak Chinese and who EXPECT me to translate for them just because I can… really gets to me sometimes…

I can understand if they were just visitors, or if they just got here, but after living here for several years and not taking the time to at least learn how to order food at a restaurant to me is well… annoying… and yet I can’t really say anything, especially when they keep saying, “I really gotta sign up for Chinese classes one day…”

Yep yep yep…

15

To some extent, discrimination could be seen as rational.

For an employer to guage the standard of education, they may see ABCs as having an inferior education. If they graduated from a US university and it was a good school, they would probably stay in the US where skilled wages are higher and would not come to Taiwan. If the employer is interested primarily in someone’s “Tawianese-ness” then they will hire a local in preference to an ABC because the local will have more suitable knowledge.

Therefore, the very fact that an ABC turns up in Taiwan may be read by employers (rightly or wrongly) as a sign of that person being below average ability. That is one way to logically explain the perceived discrimination.

16

Or maybe they’re just idiots who don’t understand anything about the world, race vs. nationality, language skills or justice.

I think that’s a valid possibility as well. And unfortunately the far more likely.

I think if they’re that rational to think about what Rational stated, they should be ‘rational’ enough to realize the biggest reason ABCs come back is generally for personal reasons (family, relearn their culture, langauge acquisition, etc)

17

[quote=“rational”]To some extent, discrimination could be seen as rational.

For an employer to guage the standard of education, they may see ABCs as having an inferior education. If they graduated from a US university and it was a good school, they would probably stay in the US where skilled wages are higher and would not come to Taiwan. [/quote]

What if they graduated from a good school, but just decided to come here to learn about their roots or hang out for a few years? What if they graduated from a good school but had enough money so they didn’t need to work. It still goes back to the stupidity and prejudices of the school owners.
I don’t think a bushiban boss thinks “bad education” when they see an ABC. They think “We need white teachers to sell our school” since “all Taiwanese think all Americans are white, and only white people can speak English.” Most of these schools would rather hire obvious white alcoholic loser druggies than an ABC, which of course they do.

If the employer is interested primarily in someone’s “Tawianese-ness” then they will hire a local in preference to an ABC because the local will have more suitable knowledge.

18

[quote=“Flicka”]
I don’t think a bushiban boss thinks “bad education” when they see an ABC. They think “We need white teachers to sell our school” since “all Taiwanese think all Americans are white, and only white people can speak English.” Most of these schools would rather hire obvious white alcoholic loser druggies than an ABC, which of course they do.[/quote]

On the other hand, I wonder if ABCs have advantages in gaining non-teaching employment, say at multinational companies or other large businesses here, than white people who are largely seen as only good for English-teaching by many Taiwanese employers.

19

i wouldn’t doubt it at all. teaching is about the only profession that i think abc’s are at a disadvantage.

as for the rational discrimination theory, well it’s not very rational. if abc’s who come back are perceived as losers when they come here from the states, why exactly should non-asians who come here to teach be considered any better? if anything, my personal experience has been that abc’s i’ve met here have much more impressive resumes and academic backgrounds than non-asians i’ve met here.

20

Academic credentials as a yardstick of loserdom? What a pile of shite! I would have classed almost every single person in my masters program as a loser. Either a loser, a dweeb or a sad anorak. Jesus christ, one guy in my year was even into trainspotting! :shock:

Except me, of course. I was always cool. 8)