Rumoured Changes to Naturalization Legislation

I probably wouldn’t. I reckon it has only about a one in four chance of achieving or helping to achieve the desired result.

I don’t think all other “advanced” countries require renunciation. For example, doesn’t Japan require renunciation as well? They’re even stricter than Taiwan from what I understand.

I think being able to renounce is a human right. Not being able to renounce is a shackle.

Some “advanced” countries may require renunciation, the same as Taiwan. I am not contending that all other “advanced” countries allow applicants to retain their original citizenship, but that notable examples of advanced countries (and almost certainly the great majority) do not. The reference to “other advanced countries” flatters by implication that Taiwan is an advanced country, which is what Taiwanese, and especially Taiwan’s government officials, love to hear. Singapore, which is considered an advanced country by many, does still require renunciation and does not allow dual citizenship at all, but there is apparently debate within the country as to whether this ought to be changed in reflection of the changing times.

Japan does not allow its citizens to renounce their Japanese citizenship, so under the proviso to Article 9 of the Nationality Act, a Japanese can obtain ROC citizenship without having to lose his Japanese citizenship. I haven’t looked into the situation of applications for naturalization as a Japanese citizen.

The US supposedly requires renunciation, but no proof of such is required. The US, despite not officially recognizing dual citizenships, turns a blind eye to it.

I don’t believe the use of “has never been” is correct. Didn’t U.S. policy on this change several decades ago? I recommend simply “the oath is not enforced…”

[quote]Benefits to Taiwan…
3. Encouraging high-caliber permanent residents, such as business executives, entrepreneurs, academics, artists, and technical experts, to become ROC citizens[/quote]
Perhaps it would be better not to refer to “permanent residents” – as that makes it sounds like the people the change would benefit would be in Taiwan regardless. But as you mention in a paragraph above, some who would like to remain in Taiwan are discouraged from doing so because of perceived uncertainties or inequalities in their status.

Many countries require it. I have several clients who have naturalized in Japan they they yes it possible but the language tests are far stricter there than in Taiwan.

Germany for instance does not allow dual nationality either, so perhaps the ROC government has mechanisms in place to inform German authorities when somebody from Germany applies. Asking for reciprocity is not going to work. One country is not going to bse a whole program on reciprocity, and there is no reason for one country to follow other countries when it comes to naturalization.

But thats what long term people are before obtaining citizenship. There are many permanent redients in many countries who do not apply to aquire the citizneship of the host country. Even in the USA UK Australia Canada many are not willing to give up their original citizenships and become Citizens of those countries.

IT would be nice if their was no requirement to renounce first though. I guess Paogao, Cooling Tower, and myself and thousands of others weren’t going to be bothered with losing our home nationality first as a reason not to go through the process. But I can understand why many will not do that.

But the point should be that if a country offers dual-citizenship to Taiwanese citizens, then Taiwan should likewise allow dual-citizenship to that country’s citizens. Taiwan doesn’t necessarily have to open it up to everyone.

I think the big issue with Japan and the like is that they don’t allow dual-citizenship either way. A Japanese citizen can’t hold dual-citizenship with another country. In Taiwan, only public officials can’t have dual-citizenship, everyone else can. It makes the rule of renouncing citizenship a bit ridiculous since they allow it for their own citizens.

Another point that might be helpful is the problem with the declining birth rate. More citizens = more money for the government.

But you can’t dump yourself, Saffas, Brits etc into the same category as Paogao and Cooling Tower. US citizens can never get their citizenship back after they renounce. That doesn’t even come close to comparing their decisions to naturalize to those of us who can.

And IMVHO if Japanese etc can’t renounce, then they shouldn’t be allowed to naturalize under the current system. Because, at the end of the day that’s even more of a double standard than Taiwanese who happily fence hop to the US for citizenship etc (and then come back here to vote on situations that will never affect them because they and theirs are ready to do a runner at a moments notice), including government officials (Diane Lee, Mas kids happily living in the US etc) but then insist on foreigners who naturalize to renounce.
It’s all or nothing, I say. :2cents:

I probably wouldn’t. I reckon it has only about a one in four chance of achieving or helping to achieve the desired result.[/quote]
Ah well, would be nice, but it doesn’t really matter to me that much. I probably wont even return to regain my citizenship, so it makes no difference to me, really.
My son also loses his SA citizenship when I renounce, but like me, if he chooses to go back he can regain it.

For me it’s just about the principle. I just feel that our “original” countries should be made more aware of this (which I fully intend on doing, FWIW anyway), and if Taiwan insists on renunciation then countries like the US, Canada, UK, Aus, NZ, SA should insist that Taiwanese renounce if they naturalize there. But it’ll probably never happen.

Interestingly, I found out that when Saffas take the citizenship of another country then they automatically lose SA citizenship anyway, so the entire renunciation process here is redundant from my POV. :loco:

But thats what long term people are before obtaining citizenship. There are many permanent redients in many countries who do not apply to aquire the citizneship of the host country. Even in the USA UK Australia Canada many are not willing to give up their original citizenships and become Citizens of those countries.[/quote]

Not all of them.
I was never a permanent resident of Taiwan, but I would have taken citizenship while I was still living there had it been possible. I would take it today if I didn’t have to renounce my US citizenship, which I am not willing to do.
I also know people who have been living legally in Taiwan for dozens of years (some over 20) who don’t qualify for PARC!! The one man I’m thinking of is exactly the type of person the ROC would benefit from having as a citizen.

Thats what asking you to renounce is my friend… all or nothing.

Well Bismarck you might find if you do not include him in your application he won’t lose his SA Nationality.

I did not include my son in the application for ROC Nationality so he was able to keep his Australian Citizenship even though I renounced. :thumbsup:

So what you are suggesting is that Taiwan have a discminatory policy and exculde those countries who dont allow dual nationality. It has to be one policy for all, which is what they have now. SO changing the policy to allow anybody to apply for ROC Nationality without renouncing their own nationality first seems to be favoured request.

Taiwan wants to be better known to the rest of the world. And Taiwan has one of the worlds lowest birthrates, if not the lowest. Why not open up immigration a little? Why not say offer citizenship (without need to renounce any other citizenship) after say 7 years of proven residence in Taiwan (means provable physical presence) . And that applies to all those young philippino girls working in the factories too. They are young and if allowed to mate will bring the birth rate a lot higher !! And I think they will be a good addition to a more cosmopolitan Taiwan.

Allow Thai laborers this as well. And also Indonesian maids and others the same. Anyone physically present for over 7 years in Taiwan can apply for citizenship. If they have lived that long on the island they likely have a vested interest in the place. Taiwan wants to be well thought of by the rest of the planet, then they should be at the forefront of human rights !
Loosen the immigration laws a bit !!

[quote=“ironlady”]Not all of them.I was never a permanent resident of Taiwan, but I would have taken citizenship while I was still living there had it been possible. I would take it today if I didn’t have to renounce my US citizenship, which I am not willing to do.

I also know people who have been living legally in Taiwan for dozens of years (some over 20) who don’t qualify for PARC!! The one man I’m thinking of is exactly the type of person the ROC would benefit from having as a citizen.[/quote]

If they don’t quality for a PARC then they most likely don’t quality for citizenship as well seeing the requirement are about the same. And whats the point of you wanting ROC Nationality, you dont live here anyways and did not intend to stay here?

Citizenship isnt given out for convenience. I know some foreigners who have also lived here for 20 years and cannot apply for a PARC. Thats because they could not be arsed to get off their arse and even apply for a marriage based ARC becasue it’s all too much trouble.

Some have criminal records back home so would not qualify so just live here on visitor visas, which are easy to get when you have a local spouse.

No it doesnt.

So what you are suggesting is that Taiwan have a discminatory policy and exculde those countries who dont allow dual nationality. It has to be one policy for all, which is what they have now. SO changing the policy to allow anybody to apply for ROC Nationality without renouncing their own nationality first seems to be favoured request.[/quote]

I totally agree that it would be great for them to open to everyone. I just meant that if this was too much for the government to agree to, a minimum leap would be one of reciprocity. Then, when they see that it works out, they could change to include any country.

So what you are suggesting is that Taiwan have a discminatory policy and exculde those countries who dont allow dual nationality. It has to be one policy for all, which is what they have now. SO changing the policy to allow anybody to apply for ROC Nationality without renouncing their own nationality first seems to be favoured request.[/quote]

I totally agree that it would be great for them to open to everyone. I just meant that if this was too much for the government to agree to, a minimum leap would be one of reciprocity. Then, when they see that it works out, they could change to include any country.[/quote]

Let me tell you, reciprocity for all the countries of the world will lead to people claiming the policy is disciminatory. You can get citizenship after 2 years of living in Australia so then Australian should get ROC Citenship after 2 years, but Brits US and Canadians and NZ would have to wait longer. SHouts of unfair all over again.

PS it is already open to everyone who qualifies to apply for ROC Nationality.

So what you are suggesting is that Taiwan have a discminatory policy and exculde those countries who dont allow dual nationality. It has to be one policy for all, which is what they have now. SO changing the policy to allow anybody to apply for ROC Nationality without renouncing their own nationality first seems to be favoured request.[/quote]

But under the current provisions of Article 9, a person whose country does not allow him to renounce his citizenship is allowed to naturalize as an ROC citizen without needing to furnish proof of loss of original citizenship. Thus, he can be a dual citizen from the outset. This means that the law is applied very differently depending on which country the applicant comes from, which is fundamentally inequitable.

Using reciprocity as the basis for determining whether or not to require renunciation is quite a reasonable proposition. Reciprocity is a fundamental principle of international relations. Taiwan already applies it in many situations: for example, it recognizes the driver’s licences of countries or states that recognize Taiwan’s driver’s licences; and it allows foreigners to own real estate here if their home country or state allows ROC citizens to own real estate there.

So if those with decision-making power in this matter are not prepared to drop the renunciation requirement altogether, at the very least they should shift the basis of its applicability to one of reciprocity. That’s why I’ve offered two alternatives for amendment of the law in my suggestion.