Its her passport. She would not have needed an excuse, “plausible” or otherwise, to ask you to return it. It belongs to her. Its her property. Understand?[/quote]
Actually, it remains the property of the issuing government, doesn’t it? As for you Guest, you only have yourself to blame – it you’d had the foresight to sever her hamstrings, this would never have happened.
Its her passport. She would not have needed an excuse, “plausible” or otherwise, to ask you to return it. It belongs to her. Its her property. Understand?[/quote]
From the way that he wrote it – subjunctive – I’m guessing she didn’t try to get it back, and that he’s interpreting her leaving it behind as “well, I can’t think of what to tell him that wouldn’t reveal that I’m about to run away, so I’ll abandon it.”
I didn’t read his post to mean “she asked, but her reason sounded stupid, so I didn’t give it to her.” I’d expect him to have written “she didn’t give me a plausible excuse” in that case. But maybe I’m too used to playing language games.
I’d be interested in knowing which happened, but I guess it doesn’t really matter at this point.
You’re probably correct, sandman. I don’ know what Indonesian law says regarding the matter.
But I’m certain that as between guest and the maid, the maid’s passport belongs to the maid.
[quote=“MaPoDoFu”]From the way that he wrote it – subjunctive – I’m guessing she didn’t try to get it back, and that he’s interpreting her leaving it behind as “well, I can’t think of what to tell him that wouldn’t reveal that I’m about to run away, so I’ll abandon it.”
I didn’t read his post to mean “she asked, but her reason sounded stupid, so I didn’t give it to her.” I’d expect him to have written “she didn’t give me a plausible excuse” in that case. But maybe I’m too used to playing language games.
I’d be interested in knowing which happened, but I guess it doesn’t really matter at this point.[/quote]
My point is that the passport belongs to the maid… I understand from guest’s statement that the maid didn’t request that guest return the passport to the maid.
What I take issue with, however, is his notion, which I inferred from his statement, that she would have needed a plausible excuse for him to return the passport. Regardless of whether in fact the passport belongs to her or to the Indonesian government, it was issued to her, not to him. He was merely “holding” it for “safekeeping” for her. Moreover, he indicated that he was holding it at her request (as opposed to some rule regarding this matter). He was obliged to return the passport for whatever reason she would have provided, or for none at all.
My point is that the passport belongs to the maid… I understand from guest’s statement that the maid didn’t request that guest return the passport to the maid.
He was obliged to return the passport for whatever reason she would have provided, or for none at all.[/quote]
Well, unless she made any such request, we’ll never know whether he would have given it to her or not. It seems like you’re beating him up because he phrased something badly, not because you believe he had nefarious intent.
[quote]“Are You The Judean People’s Front?”
“F%#@ off! We’re the People’s Front of Judea!”
– from the movie “Life of Brian” [/quote]
[quote=“MaPoDoFu”]Well, unless she made any such request, we’ll never know whether he would have given it to her or not. It seems like you’re beating him up because he phrased something badly, not because you believe he had nefarious intent.
[/quote]
Yes, I am. I take exception to the phrase he used. The issue of why he even had the passport was raised and he responded. I can only understand his ideas from what he posts here.
From his post, it seems to me that he believes that he has a right to hold the maid’s passport absent a “plausible excuse” provided by her in a request for him to return the same.
I take issue with that notion. He is certainly free to post a clarification here, if indeed he simply worded his idea poorly.
One of the rules employers here ignore is that concerning passports. From the official “Handbook for Migrant Workers in Taipei City”:
Yes, indeed. Who suggested the "safekeeping’ arrangement, anyhow? Isn’t anyone old enough to leave her country to work alone in a foreign land mature enough to hold onto a passport? (OK, except my ex-husband, but let’s not go there.) 
Why would you ask a caregiver to wash your underwear for you, or conversely, why ask a housemaid to look after your child? What did your hire her for? The mind boggles, really!
It’s not a union position, so her “task list” could probably be described as “whatever needs to be done.”
Besides which, even if she has a clearly-written-out job description which doesn’t mention “child care” anywhere, she’s still going to be in the same apartment as the kid. If she hasn’t been trustworthy around the kid, then it doesn’t matter whether that job description includes diaper changes or not – she’s still gonna get thrown out, right? If you’ve got a dog to protect against burglars, and it bites the kid, the dog is going to the pound, right? Not much difference, except that the maid presumably has human intelligence and so should have known better.
You’re probably correct, sandman. I don’ know what Indonesian law says regarding the matter.
But I’m certain that as between guest and the maid, the maid’s passport belongs to the maid.[/quote]
TM, ignoring whether the passport is owned by the issuing country or not, when we employed our maid, both she and we were told that we had to hold her passport. All of us were led to believe that it was a requirement of law, not that anyone argued at the time. As she had been a maid for 10 years in HK and did not contest this position then i do not think it is actually that unusual.
Well, it’s strictly illegal to hold the passport of an employee. There was a thing in the paper last week about the government reminding people of this.
Brian
Sorry to back track but I think Mr He’s comment about hiring the mafia to track down his maid is worth another look. Specifically I think it is interesting to consider exactly why it was even funny to some of us. I think there are two possibilities.
It gave us a chance for a bit of release. Day in day out we hold in feelings that on some level we are none too proud of. Making a “joke” like that is a sort of release that we can give ourselves and without consequences since hey, it was just a joke right. Yeah but why was it funny? I don’t think a person would respond positively to a joke like that unless somewhere deep down he was hiding some pretty sadistic impulses unless…
We all just get so sick of the language police that we want to rebel with whatever sort of rot just to demonstrate that we can.
Anyway I think a lot of us would be wise to have a look at just what we think is so funny about that kind of humor. If we just want to rebel maybe we can find a more productive way. If we harbouring a lot of angry, hateful feelings then maybe we should get out our baseball bats, drive up to tienmu and bash in a few yuppie skulls…
It was a stupid comment, OK?
However, that said, I would like to know if they ever caught her.
Wonder what went wrong, but having someone living with your family can be a strain - if I had a maid, I would arrange for a 016 service, as it would only be 2-3 NT per minute.
Perhaps a bit of leave once in a while would improve the situation as well.
Well, it’s strictly illegal to hold the passport of an employee. There was a thing in the paper last week about the government reminding people of this.
Brian[/quote]
If it is that illegal, why are th emaid agencies still advocating it, never mind al the OCW involved in construction projects etc, ask them if they have their passports, 10 to 1 says they dont, and the situation is unlikely to change
Many things are technically illegal, but never enforced.
Well, it’s strictly illegal to hold the passport of an employee. There was a thing in the paper last week about the government reminding people of this.
Brian[/quote]
If it is that illegal, why are th emaid agencies still advocating it, never mind al the OCW involved in construction projects etc, ask them if they have their passports, 10 to 1 says they dont, and the situation is unlikely to change
Many things are technically illegal, but never enforced.[/quote]
Are you really surprized that things get done here in a way that in no manner is a reflection of the law?
What possible reason (legitimate) could there be for a person to give up his/her passport tho his/her employer.
Did YOU hand over your passport to your employer here?
[quote=“bob”]Sorry to back track but I think Mr He’s comment about hiring the mafia to track down his maid is worth another look. Specifically I think it is interesting to consider exactly why it was even funny to some of us. I think there are two possibilities.
It gave us a chance for a bit of release. Day in day out we hold in feelings that on some level we are none too proud of. Making a “joke” like that is a sort of release that we can give ourselves and without consequences since hey, it was just a joke right. Yeah but why was it funny? I don’t think a person would respond positively to a joke like that unless somewhere deep down he was hiding some pretty sadistic impulses unless…
We all just get so sick of the language police that we want to rebel with whatever sort of rot just to demonstrate that we can.
Anyway I think a lot of us would be wise to have a look at just what we think is so funny about that kind of humor. If we just want to rebel maybe we can find a more productive way. If we harbouring a lot of angry, hateful feelings then maybe we should get out our baseball bats, drive up to Tianmu and bash in a few yuppie skulls…[/quote]
bob, I daresay trying to be politically correct is really becoming a strain for you, maybe you should consider relating or moving to the U.S. where everyone tows the line. 
Hey Mr He nothing personal. We all do it. I am just suggesting that maybe it is time we all started wondering why.
Vanneyel there is not a politically correct bone in my body. No worries there.
Well, it’s strictly illegal to hold the passport of an employee. There was a thing in the paper last week about the government reminding people of this.
Brian[/quote]
If it is that illegal, why are th emaid agencies still advocating it, never mind al the OCW involved in construction projects etc, ask them if they have their passports, 10 to 1 says they dont, and the situation is unlikely to change
Many things are technically illegal, but never enforced.[/quote]
Are you really surprized that things get done here in a way that in no manner is a reflection of the law?
What possible reason (legitimate) could there be for a person to give up his/her passport tho his/her employer.
Did YOU hand over your passport to your employer here?[/quote]
TM, nothing here surprises me anymore, sad fact though that is. Am not saying it IS legal, just that the maid agencies were infering it was.
Other than visa applications in the early days then NO, i did not hand my passport over, but that said there are distinct differences in how blue and white collar workers are treated here.
It’s because blue collar workers have a large incentive to run away from their employer and work illegally (ie non-taxed), potentially leaving the employer in a lurch (unable to hire a new one until the runaway is caught).
I doubt that legal, white collar workers have the same incentive. Although I have heard of stories of buxiban holding on to English teacher’s passports in the early days.