Russia invades Ukraine: General Discussion 2023

Oh, I don’t remeber seeing that. Germany and the US not sending tanks had been in the news a lot. So, are the Challengers (?) they are sending junk?

Sure did, and Ukraine had biggest army in Europe before the war. Leopards won’t save Ukraine.
Just giving Russia some real live practice on them.

No the UK tanks look tip top shape, just we don’t have tons of them so it was like 12 tanks. The US is giving about the same and Germany is also giving around 12 as well as Poland is discussing around 12.

So, all in all about 50 tanks of different variations.

I’m not sure any weapon system short of nukes will save Ukraine. Not having tanks won’t save them, either

Ah, so not this:

That’s fine. Apparently they used to have the biggest army in Europe, and they have captured Russian armor, plus these 50. How many tank crews do they have? 50 is a start. There is still the balancing act of keeping Putin from declaring war on NATO

I like the positive attitude, 50 tanks is indeed a start. How many tank crews do the Ukrainians have to man these types of tanks? Non that I am aware of, I hear talk of them training the Ukrainians in various locations to use the tanks and resupply and service them though,

Huh, 14 Challenger 2s, from a fleet of 227 operational, plus another 30 self propelled big guns

Ah, it was 14 tanks not 12 as I mentioned, I stand corrected. The article goes on to say

Mr Sunak said the Challengers, the British Army’s main battle tank, would help Kyiv’s forces “push Russian troops back”.

Mr Sunak thinks 14 tanks will help Kyiv’s forces “push Russian troops back”. Ooook then.

The next logical question might be, how many tanks does Russia have and what systems to destroy tanks do the Russians have, like anti tank missiles and how many of those do they have.


Sure, we could play that game for a long time. And how many of which anti-tank systems do the Ukrainians have (drones and javelins come to mind)?

If we’re playing that game, I’d also like to know comparative numbers of tanks a year ago, plus confirmed numbers destroyed, and captured

I don’t think it’s a game at all, I am hearing something like 120k Ukranian soldiers have been killed since the start of this war and that’s a tragedy.

You can get an idea of how many tanks each country has by this link.

I remain skeptical 50 tanks or whatever the NATO allies are currently supplying Ukraine will turn things around, the only other strategy of entering negotiations seems off the table as far as NATO is concerned.

So, for the foreseeable future the strategy seems to be to keep supplying Ukraine with military equipment in the hope they can push back the Russians, I hope I am wrong and the Ukrainians can do that.

I saw a similar number of Russians KIA, as a wise man once said:

Right, but how about those other variables I brought up? They matter, too. But we can’t get good figures, for obvious reasons

I remain confident that not supplying Ukraine will turn things around. I remain skeptical that Russian victory and Ukranian capitulation will result in lasting peace

It takes both sides to negotiate. If Putin said he would return all annexed territory, pay reparations, and give himself up for war crimes, in exchange for Crimea, probably there would be a strong push to accept that. But it won’t happen.

Similarly, if the Russians demand that Ukraine cede all annexed territory (some of which they currently hold), that they agree to never join NATO, and that they agree to demilitarize, obviously they are not going to be taken seriously

They’ve been surprisingly successful so far, only time will tell. I hope the Russians withdraw.

Why would I be angry with that?
What makes me sad, is seeing dead soldiers on both sides. A waste of life for an age-old agenda.
You’re obviously still emotional about all this. I suggest you concentrate on other corporate agendas that are being pushed to level out your emotions.

With regard to the NATO proxy war (as admitted by a Ukrainian official a week or two back) and NATO countries sending tanks, it is not a game changer.
How does sending a handful of tanks to a territory lost, the size of Belgium and the Netherlands going to change anything? And if they are damaged or need servicing, they will need to be shipped thousands of miles to Poland? Each tank needs soldiers trained specifically for that tank model.
And those supply lines are probably going to be bombed at some stage.
NATO have made the Ukrainian army like a Dad’s Army outfit. But that does not matter as long as there is money to be made and Russia are enemies for a decade to justify arms sales contracts.

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These are advanced weapons that were previously not supplied. No, a handful doesn’t win the war. 50 (or 58, by my last count) won’t stop the mythical 500000 (or 250000, more recently upthread). But some of those tanks might make the difference in some of the battles in the offensives to come.

They could just say war is too hard, and give up

Yeah so “handfuls” of dozens at a time kinda makes sense

Probably, but patriots and anti drone systems are also being provided. It’s a war. The mobile artillery that is also being provided can similarly blow up Russian supply lines

Russia could just, you know, stop invading neighboring countries :man_shrugging:

You seem obsessed with this number.
Possibly because of impatience there has not been a WW1 like offensive which shows them all on the front?
300,000 reservist troops have been called up (not sure if that includes the 80,000 extra that volunteered). You also have the Chechens, Wagner group and Russian soldiers already involved. Plus the Militias that have been fighting Ukrainian Nazis since 2014.
Also, that number may include the Belorussians who have been working with the Russians over the last couple of months.

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It seemed so ridiculous, I’m curious to see if it pans out. I can’t make list of every ridiculous thing, and might not remembet to keep track of any of them, so worth repeating just so I don’t forget.

If the ground freezes and 500000 Russian troops end up on the border with Poland, I owe you an apology. To be gentlemanly about it, I’ll throw in a beer

I don’t believe they want to go to the border of Poland.
Possibly Transnistria.
I would not be surprised if the Poles with the current leader try to move into Western Ukraine ‘to protect it’. Which would open up another can of worms, what with some Poles claiming part of Western Ukraine is in fact Poland.

Putin’s losing.

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That’s why they’re donating tanks?

30 M-1 Abrams,
14 Challenger 2
14 Leopard 2 (Poland)
14 Leopard 2 (Germany)

Total so far 72 (asked for 300 modern tanks)

Waiting to see what Austria, Denmark, Finland, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey and Canada do with their Leopard 2’s.

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There are many cakes on this forum, but let me remind a few simple things:

  1. The country of Russia invaded the country of Ukraine. Destroying cities, killing people, raping women. All as happens in the war…

  2. The country Ukraine is basically resisting this kind of state of affairs.

Which side is right from the basic ethical point of view? Adjust your moral compasses and judge from this…