Russia Terrorizes Its Gay Citizens

The Russian government, church, and street hooligans are combining forces to terrorize gay citizens. This summer, Russia passed a law declaring it illegal to protest in favor of LGBT rights. The same bill also makes it illegal for LGBT to kiss each other in public. The Russian Orthodox Church supports this new law. In fact, the Patriach of the Russian Orthodox Church has declared same-sex marriage as a sign of the apocalyse. This law was quickly followed by another which makes it legal for police to arrest any foreigner suspected of being gay or just pro-gay. Finally, a third law was passed banning the adoption of Russian babies to gay couples or to any country where marriage equality is legal. The Russian public overwhelmingly supports these new laws, and recent polls indicate very little support for the LGBT community there. Russian ultra-nationalists, led by the skinhead Maxim Martsinkevich have begun capturing and torturing gay teens and posting the videos to Youtube. Russian ultra-nationalists have been witnessed publicly beating gay citizens. Although these actions are illegal, the Russian government has declined to intervene. One boy tortured by Martsinkevich’s group died of his injuries, just six days ago. Several gay Russian teens have committed suicide this summer.

Sadly, these new laws are supported by American conservatives.

[quote]NEW YORK – As the hub of the Soviet Union, Russia was reviled for rights abuses by many U.S. conservatives during the Cold War. Now some are voicing support and admiration as Russian authorities crack down on gay-rights activism.

The latest step drawing praise from social conservatives is a bill signed into law Sunday by President Vladimir Putin that would impose hefty fines for holding gay pride rallies or providing information about the gay community to minors.

“You admire some of the things they’re doing in Russia against propaganda,” said Austin Ruse, president of the U.S.-based Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute. “On the other hand, you know it would be impossible to do that here.”

In a sign of Russia’s evolving stature among some U.S. social conservatives, the Illinois-based World Congress of Families plans to hold its eighth international conference at the Kremlin’s Palace of Congresses in Moscow next year. Past conferences in Europe, Mexico and Australia have brought together opponents of abortion and same-sex marriage from dozens of countries.

“The Kremlin used to be a no-no for conservatives,” said Larry Jacobs, managing director of the World Congress. “We’re going to redeem that building.”

Ruse, whose institute is seeking accreditation at the United Nations, plans to travel to Russia this summer to meet with government officials and civic leaders.

“We want to let them know they do in fact have support among American NGOs (non-governmental organizations) on social issues,” he said.

Among others commending Russia’s anti-gay efforts was Peter LaBarbera of Americans for Truth About Homosexuality.

“Russians do not want to follow America’s reckless and decadent promotion of gender confusion, sexual perversion, and anti-biblical ideologies to youth,” LaBarbera said on his website.

The website for the September 2014 conference declares that Russia, “with its historic commitment to deep spirituality and morality, can be a hope for the natural family supporters from all over the world.”[/quote]

I am particularly disappointed to see Catholic support for these laws. I know that the Catholic Church does not support same-sex marriage, but it should be obvious that these laws are being used to bully innocent people and encourage vigilante kidnappings and assaults. No Catholic should ever tolerate such behavior, much less praise it.

I suppose I should not be surprised that American conservatives are rallying to Russia’s battle cry. In a recent thread on LGBT rights in the US, one poster stated that children should never be adopted to gay couples because there are always suitable straight couples, whom this poster believes to be superior by virtue of gender. Homophobia persists across the world.

Who cares? Russia is Russia, the West has got no right to dictate their policy-least of all a small interest group like gays. I’d rather complain about Muslim mistreatment of woman than this boring topic. Something meaningful.
Gays have heaps of rights in the West, and for less than 10% of the population we sure hear a lot from them. Let them do their thing, preferably in silence.

[quote=“Kea”]Who cares? Russia is Russia, the West has got no right to dictate their policy-least of all a small interest group like gays. I’d rather complain about Muslim mistreatment of woman than this boring topic. Something meaningful.
Gays have heaps of rights in the West, and for less than 10% of the population we sure hear a lot from them. Let them do their thing, preferably in silence.[/quote]

I’d rather have silence from you! :raspberry:

Who cares if gays are being persecuted? Caring people.

Could you give any examples of that GBH?

[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“Kea”]Who cares? Russia is Russia, the West has got no right to dictate their policy-least of all a small interest group like gays. I’d rather complain about Muslim mistreatment of woman than this boring topic. Something meaningful.
Gays have heaps of rights in the West, and for less than 10% of the population we sure hear a lot from them. Let them do their thing, preferably in silence.[/quote]

I’d rather have silence from you! :raspberry:

Who cares if gays are being persecuted? Caring people.[/quote]

Oh great a circle jerk, how appropriate for the topic. :laughing:
The post from BigJohn constitutes a personal attack. Instead of discussing the topic, he emotionally attacks the poster. This is against the rules of the site.

And my reply: Gays are a tiny percentage of the Western population. As I said they have many rights in the West, and they should be happy with those. I don’t give two hoots what they do in their own spare time in their own house. But they can’t stop themselves there. Well, ok, if they must parade themselves but it doesn’t mean I must care or like it.

However, it seems pointless to whinge about the treatment of gays in various other countries. There are better topics to focus on… One example: women (who make up 50% of many populations), and are mistreated and given substantially less rights in many West Asian countries and in Muslim countries.

[quote=“Gao Bohan”]
I am particularly disappointed to see Catholic support for these laws. I know that the Catholic Church does not support same-sex marriage, but it should be obvious that these laws are being used to bully innocent people and encourage vigilante kidnappings and assaults. No Catholic should ever tolerate such behavior, much less praise it.

I suppose I should not be surprised that American conservatives are rallying to Russia’s battle cry. In a recent thread on LGBT rights in the US, one poster stated that children should never be adopted to gay couples because there are always suitable straight couples, whom this poster believes to be superior by virtue of gender. Homophobia persists across the world.[/quote]
I would hesitate to call Russia completely Western. They grew up with the same Judeo-Christian Western morals as Europe, but for a good 70 or 80 years, they followed hard socialism, which is closer to traditional Orient styles of government. They have a long history of stamping out freedom of expression, of preventing democracy full reign.

 I believe homosexuals are treated much better in Europe and the United States because of our long, uninterrupted tradition of tolerance, even for those whose religion or lifestyle we don't agree with.  They always more or less had freedom to express themselves in their way.  Asking government to come out and bless them is another thing.  Just because governments never recognized Mormonism or their polygamy, but still allowed them to practice their religion (without allowing [i]official [/i]polygamy sanctioned by the government -- those lewd men were still doing it) isn't persecuting them; just because governments don't recognize a particular lifestyle and bless it with tax monies isn't the same as persecution, like Russia might be engaging in.  You err on this point.

I doubt the Catholic Church or American Conservatives agree with Russia’s extreme treatment of homosexuals as they wouldn’t agree with their extreme treatment of other minorities. That’s just HuffingtonPost trying to find a there that isn’t there. Are they conflating the Catholic Church with the Orthodox Church? Most Orthodox Churches had to live under Communism too. They were likely influenced by it.

[quote=“jotham”]
I doubt the Catholic Church or American Conservatives agree with Russia’s extreme treatment of homosexuals as they wouldn’t agree with their extreme treatment of other minorities. That’s just HuffingtonPost trying to find a there that isn’t there. Are they conflating the Catholic Church with the Orthodox Church? Most Orthodox Churches had to live under Communism too. They were likely influenced by it.[/quote]

The Huffpost is wrong because it is liberal, therefore it is wrong? You have actual info of a verifiable nature to support your argument that Huffpost is making this up? That the Orthodox Church’s anti gay stance somehow derives from communism?

[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“jotham”]
I doubt the Catholic Church or American Conservatives agree with Russia’s extreme treatment of homosexuals as they wouldn’t agree with their extreme treatment of other minorities. That’s just HuffingtonPost trying to find a there that isn’t there. Are they conflating the Catholic Church with the Orthodox Church? Most Orthodox Churches had to live under Communism too. They were likely influenced by it.[/quote]

The Huffpost is wrong because it is liberal, therefore it is wrong? You have actual info of a verifiable nature to support your argument that Huffpost is making this up? That the Orthodox Church’s anti gay stance somehow derives from communism?[/quote]
I’m raising questions. Gao Baohan has demanded strict standards for my links; I think I’m being fair in asking the same with something I find incredulous, and seemingly anti-religion.

Calling Gao’s post a whinge when it highlights kidnapping, torture, and all manner or physical and emotional abuse is really about as poor a choice of words as one can make. Only it wasn’t a poor choice was it? You have stated you don’t care. I suspect your concern for Muslim women is nothing but a deflection since it strikes me as inconsistent you would have so much empathy for one persecuted group and zero for another. If that strikes you as a personal attack, I couldn’t give a shit.

It’s 2013. No decent rational person can hold the opinion that gays should stay in the closet and their persecution is nothing to be concerned about.

[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“Gao Bohan”]

I am particularly disappointed to see Catholic support for these laws. I know that the Catholic Church does not support same-sex marriage, but it should be obvious that these laws are being used to bully innocent people and encourage vigilante kidnappings and assaults. No Catholic should ever tolerate such behavior, much less praise it.
[/quote]

Could you give any examples of that GBH?[/quote]

From the HuffPo article I linked in the OP:

[quote]“You admire some of the things they’re doing in Russia against propaganda,” said Austin Ruse, president of the U.S.-based
Catholic Family and Human Rights Institute
. “On the other hand, you know it would be impossible to do that here.”[/quote]

Trey Gowdy is my idol as a congressman and he is very conservative. He doesn’t believe in gay marriage. Yet, he defends homosexuals much more vigorously than I’ve ever seen liberals do. In this clip at beginning and end, he is actually telling liberals at the IRS to stop acting like robots, like the Borg, (that always have to get together for consensus before figuring anything out), and just do the right thing against obvious homosexual discrimination from an obvious homophobic IRS official (who invoked the 5th amendment to remain silent). He thinks individual responsibility and judgment should be enough to defend the dignity of homosexuals, but unfortunately it wasn’t in this case.

Is this the picture you’re trying to paint of American persecution of homosexuals? Here the Republicans are trying to investigate homosexual persecution in the IRS among the other crimes.

I quoted two articles. The first from Radio Free Europe, referencing the Russian Orthodox Patriach declaring same-sex marriage as a sign of the apocalypse. The second from HuffPo, which referenced several American conservative groups, including a Catholic group, supporting the new Russian laws (and lamenting that similar laws could not be implemented in the US). I am not surprised that the Russian Orthodox Church backs these new laws. President Putin and the Patriach are very close. I am surprised that any American would back Russia’s pointless and brutal crackdown on the Russian gay community. I would have thought it to be a bridge too far.

Persecution is defined as the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another individual or group. Gays are persecuted anywhere they do not have equal rights to everybody else, period. Of course in some places it’s worse than others. Many Islamic countries still execute gays. Russia isn’t executing gays, but that doesn’t make its persecution of the gay community any less appalling. By the same token, many Western nations and US states do not allow same-sex marriage. It’s still persecution, it’s just a matter of degrees.

Jotham, you oppose allowing gay couples to adopt children whenever there are straight couple applicants (which is always). You are directly advocating discrimination against the gay community. You have zero credibility on this issue.

There was a contention concerning Mormons and polygamy after the Civil War.The black-rights Republicans were dead against their new form and redefinition of marriage as a government-recognized institute. Was that persecution against Mormons? The slavery-indifferent Democrats, on the other hand, defended their marriage and sex rights until it became infeasible to do so as the people were against them, and they finally joined the Republicans according to their opportunism. The Mormons finally yielded, acquiesced and did marriage like the rest of the country. Was that persecution of Mormons? Should we go back and allow their polygamy, readdress wrong injustices they suffered because we didn’t allow for their unique marriage needs?

I am for legislatures deciding. Where states have no laws concerning such, adoption centers like yours can do as they please. I am definitely against the federal courts contravening state laws (obviously by rabbit-out-of-the-hat rights created into the Constitution by substantive due process) telling adoption centers to accept gay parents. Personally, I think it’s better that children be placed in the best environments for them without political interference and would hope my legislator would feel the same.

I don’t know, maybe. Feel free to start a thread on the persecution of Mormons and/or other polygamists if the topic interests you.

You stated that gay couples should not be allowed to adopt children if there are straight couples in the running, which as you correctly point out, is always. You argued vehemently that children raised by gay parents are tangibly harmed, and that straight parents make better parents. You advocate discrimination against gays. At least have the courage to own up to it.

Like mine? :eh: So far as I know, I don’t know own any adoption centers.

Feel free to start a thread on any of those topics…THIS thread is about the pointless and violent persecution of the Russian gay community.

You stated that gay couples should not be allowed to adopt children if there are straight couples in the running, which as you correctly point out, is always. You argued vehemently that children raised by gay parents are tangibly harmed, and that straight parents make better parents. You advocate discrimination against gays. At least have the courage to own up to it.[/quote]
Only by way of showing that my position is not uninformed. It is not animus or discrimination against gay people as it is concern for the welfare of children. Gay people are just as capable of raising children in the best environment too as long as providing a mommy and a daddy. Put a homosexual man and woman together, they would be much better pair for children than two homosexual men or women or two straight men or women. It’s all bias on gender – both are equally vital and important – not bias on orientation.

[quote=“jotham”]
Only by way of showing that my position is not uninformed. It is not animus or discrimination against gay people as it is concern for the welfare of children. Gay people are just as capable of raising children in the best environment too as long as providing a mommy and a daddy. Put a [strike]homosexual[/strike] heterosexual man and woman together, they would be much better pair for children than two homosexual men or women or two straight men or women. It’s all bias on gender – both are equally vital and important – not bias on orientation.[/quote]

I presume that’s what you meant to write. What a pile of utter tripe. “Bias on gender”? Are you insane? What renders a heterosexual couple more “capable” of raising a child than a homosexual one?

Reactionary bullshit. :2cents:

[quote=“jimipresley”][quote=“jotham”]
Only by way of showing that my position is not uninformed. It is not animus or discrimination against gay people as it is concern for the welfare of children. Gay people are just as capable of raising children in the best environment too as long as providing a mommy and a daddy. Put a [strike]homosexual[/strike] heterosexual man and woman together, they would be much better pair for children than two homosexual men or women or two straight men or women. It’s all bias on gender – both are equally vital and important – not bias on orientation.[/quote]

I presume that’s what you meant to write. What a pile of utter tripe. “Bias on gender”? Are you insane? What renders a heterosexual couple more “capable” of raising a child than a homosexual one?

Reactionary bullshit. :2cents:[/quote]

That just goes to show that you’re position is reduced to twisting rhetoric and distorting meaning (and with the Constitution as well) to find discrimination. You’re trying really hard to find a there where there is no there there.

It has nothing to do with capability. It has to do with the biological, psychological, and sometimes physical needs of children. They need a mommy and a daddy; whether or not they be gay is immaterial as far as children are concerned.

[quote=“jotham”]That just goes to show that you’re position is reduced to twisting rhetoric and distorting meaning (and with the Constitution as well) to find discrimination. You’re trying really hard to find a there where there is no there there.

It has nothing to do with capability. It has to do with the biological, psychological, and sometimes physical needs of children. They need a mommy and a daddy; whether or not they be gay is immaterial as far as children are concerned.[/quote]
Based on what you’re saying, you’re against single parents adopting children too? I think there are some studies showing that children with single parents on average have it worse, but I just pulled that out of my ass because I’m too lazy to research it. If what I said is in fact true then maybe you actually have a valid concern.

Disclaimer: I’m not on either side, just trying to be objective.

Calling Gao’s post a whinge when it highlights kidnapping, torture, and all manner or physical and emotional abuse is really about as poor a choice of words as one can make. Only it wasn’t a poor choice was it? You have stated you don’t care. I suspect your concern for Muslim women is nothing but a deflection since it strikes me as inconsistent you would have so much empathy for one persecuted group and zero for another. If that strikes you as a personal attack, I couldn’t give a shit.

It’s 2013. No decent rational person can hold the opinion that gays should stay in the closet and their persecution is nothing to be concerned about.[/quote]
Yes, again it is a personal attack. I am quite able to hold a range of feelings for different issues ranging from empathetic, sympathetic, to less concern. You shouldn’t make such a sweeping generalization about me and instead should focus on the topic. The only way I err is perhaps going off topic by mentioning other issues for comparison. But that’s just one line, and it’s a valid point. Calling me not rational or decent and misconstruing my post is not acceptable, you didn’t need to do that.

Let me reply: Institutional persecution of any group of innocent people, in any country, should be stopped. It is good that gay people have strong rights in the Western countries. But they are a small minority and there are more important issues to focus on, really. I really care much more about environmental issues, such as energy over consumption, over fishing in the seas or wildlife destruction, than whether 5-10% of the population has the right to get legally married.

However, persecution of gays has been going on in Iraq and the Middle East, North Korea, Africa etc for many years, and escalating in some of these spots recently. To be a useful thread, it should expand its focus to include these cases-which are worse than what Russia is doing. Don’t just focus on various individual countries (whinging about Russia alone is insufficient), but make it a deeper issue.