Salary negotiations for a critical foreign tech expert

Work Working in Taiwan
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My negotiations with a new employer would soon start involving numbers. I don’t mean to come across as bragging but need accurate advice so I am couching the question in a way that is as close to, but as anonymous, as I feel is appropriate.

Prospective employer’s company is large; without going into details, their R&D budget (not revenue or profits) probably puts them in the top 25 if not top 10 companies in Taiwan. His company is also pivoting.

Because of the pivot, I would be in charge of a new R&D division within his company that is essential to the pivot being pulled off successfully, and would be reporting directly to the CEO.

I’m a scientist and not so good at being savvy at negotiations; I remember at my first job after finishing my PhD, I expected my first employer to treat a highly skilled professional with due respect, so when it came to salary negotiations and he asked how much I was expecting, I said the not-so-bright phrase “Whatever you think is fair.” :face_with_head_bandage: Clearly PhD material, right? :face_with_peeking_eye:

Of course I got the short end of the bargain, which I know for a fact after my PhD officemate at the same position as me, with the same qualifications and experience, got about 8% more because he asked for more and had the chutzpah to tell his would be boss, “If he doesn’t give this salary, he’s going to accept the job offer from a competitor (which he didn’t really have!)” The result was a couple of years of feeling underpaid and not pushing myself as much as I could have, and in fact your first salary frames things for your subsequent job…and then your next job etc.

I tell this story because I’m humbly accepting advice on how to negotiate my remuneration package! :slight_smile:

Being in academia, my present salary leaves much to be desired. Should I at least expect my salary in Taiwan to exceed my present salary? Everyone says living expenses in Taiwan are lower than where I am, but I’m more interested in my career’s progression (measured in $) rather than some nebulous concept of “But it’s cheaper in Taiwan…”

Also, doing things in a lab is different from doing things at an industrial scale. So in a sense I am not perfectly qualified for the job I will be given, but also without going into details, this type of R&D is pretty niche and most of the experts who set up things at an industrial scale are small in number and probably also started off being novices. Think setting up a car production line from scratch, but even more niche than that.

It is important for my conscience to not feel like I am screwing anyone over, and also to not give the impression that I am wanting to screw people over for the last penny.

I could also use some insight into the Taiwanese negotiating customs and expectations.

Other possible axes of compensation exist and may be negotiated, such as perks, research freedom, division of intellectual property, royalties, bonuses and performance related compensation. I am quietly but humbly confident that if the leverage for performance related compensation was large (e.g. 1-5x my base salary) with measurable goals, I would certainly meet them.

In terms of base salaries, I understand for professors in Taiwan, an average would be something like NTD100k/month. I am not a professor but the role of being in charge of a research group is similar.

NTD100k/month is much less than what I am making presently, which is furthermore in academia (so it is already low!). I believe as a minimum starting point if I push the “But I am already making $X where I am…” would be closer to NTD200k/month. I was told by friends in industry that if I was in industry rather than academia, based on my qualifications and experience, I would probably be making in the region of NTD300k-400k/month in my country of origin. But of course I do not have the salary slips to back the NTD300-400k/month assertion up, although I do have one to back up the NTD200k/month one.

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What every you think is the minimum, times that by 10. If you are a lead of an R&D department you will maybe be in charge of mangers plus assisting managers plus staff.

I don’t know much about science and engineering but I know in finance you need to look at industry standards plus your experience plus your skills plus your demand plus what you can bring to the company.

Look at what a similar role in the USA would get then adjust based on your own expertise.

I would expect based you what you said that you should command above $500k per month plus performance bonuses. So you would average, if you meet your targets, close to $1million a month.

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That’s a nice position to be in. I’d ask for 400k and be prepared to walk away. But, what do I know.

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My general rule when interviewing is that I say I want 150% whatever my current salary is, but am prepared to accept 130%. This doesn’t work if you are moving to a more expensive/cheaper area though. I also make sure that whatever bonuses I would be getting from my current role but won’t get during the first year in my new role are made up for by the increase in salary. For example, if I earn $100,000 a month now, and get 3 months of salary as a bonus, then I’ll need to make at least an extra $25,000 a month to make up for the fact that I probably won’t get any bonuses in my first year at the new job since I won’t have been there long enough. You’d likely get a 5-10% raise annually if you just stayed in your current role, so in my mind you shouldn’t move if you aren’t getting at least twice that, ideally much more.

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Why the hell are you switching into third person?

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He is talking about the hiring manager

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Ah I see. :laughing:

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I would agree with this guy. This is how I approach all my negotiations. Decide how much your worth yourself. Tell them that’s what you want and you have another offer from another competitor but you prefer to work for them. Whether you actually have another offer or not is generally irrelevant if they really want you/have difficulty finding staff.

Usually they will either give you what you want or very close too.

I think it was @nz who advised me when I asked a similar question that ‘everyone can pay more’ where they get the money from doesn’t really matter to you

Although as a side note I know I’m not getting paid as much where I am as I would elsewhere as a new employee but I like where I work. Sometimes you need to sacrifice a little or I’m not the best person to take advice from :joy:

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These comments don’t sit well together. To achieve the latter goal, I would work to entirely ditch the former feeling. Weaknesses like that will be sensed and exploited instinctively. Better to keep things practical. What do you want to do this job? Ask for it straight out as if you expect it by right. If they agree they’ll pay you. If not then negotiate, but there should be no soft feelings on your part–there won’t likely be on theirs, unless you know something about these individuals that you haven’t said here.

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Very well said

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I have gotten a 2x on my local offers here by just preparing to walk away. And my resume is probably not as good as yours. Get competing offers, and know your worth. I usually just use the phrase “Thanks for your consideration, your company is my first choice, but the difference in total compensation with my offer from X is just too large for me to ignore.” and it works

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Thank you everyone for your advice.

My main unknown is that there can only be one head of the prospective department, and I don’t know if he has other candidates on hand. I’m guessing he doesn’t, because the other candidate would probably be another Gold Card holder (of which about 4k were issued since 2018) and the number of people publishing in this field is small.

In my first job, us scientists and engineers used to console ourselves over our salaries compared to the admin/marketing/sales/finance/accounts people with an adage, “The closer you are to the money, the better the pay.”

At the end of the day, I really don’t want to walk away from this because it is a once in a lifetime opportunity to shape the direction of a large company with research that is basically a hobby to me.

That’s what us in academia say in response to people in industry getting more than us - research freedom, job satisfaction, etc. :slight_smile:

OK, let’s say the boss was expecting to pay me between NTD$100-300k a month. I ask for NTD$500k a month.

I understand that Asians prefer not to say no and prefer consensus; is he likely to be offended because I asked outside his range, like I am insulting his intelligence and/or am not humble, and walk away?

Or is he likely to signal his lower expectations, with something like “Cost of living in Taiwan is cheaper”?

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If there is only one applicant with the requisite qualifications and skills? The power is in the hands of the applicant.

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Don’t overthink it with that kind of stuff. This is business.

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married? kids? live in taipei or where? employer covers housing ? home visits ? education ? you plan to travel home once a year at least? do you have any retirement savings already ?
dont fret too much about negotiation culture and shit. Calculate how much you need to support yourself and family, have enough so you can save and invest, and allow you the life style you need.
a salary of 3 million a year in Taipei will allow for a very good life style without much financial trouble.

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I would go for 300k base salary, a profit sharing bonus, and a multiple month CNY bonus depending on the company performance. Plus 50k for a housing allowance.

Lots of foreign professionals working for MNCs make around the 200k range, and that’s without executive responsibilities.

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He will try to pull out something similar, but say straight they told me actually to live a western life, Taiwan is more expensive(is true, living in Taiwan can be cheaper only when you accept lower quality of life. )

Tell them I am in talk with Americans, they offer me yearly salary close to a million of American dollars not Taiwanese dollars. Do you know hoc muc is this? . Like 30 mio twd., A lot of money But I think I can bring more value to your company. Do you understand with my work you will make millions for decades down the road? Let’s go with humble of one million twd per month for first year and than we will talk about bonuses for me staying here.

edit. I negotiate salaries with junior software developers

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Add on.

When he really needs you, he will come back with something like between 400k and 600k twd/month with promise of bonuses. I would tell him 600k + rest in stocks. All top Taiwanese companies issue stocks for top managers and pay their salaries with stocks. Is super financial optimal for company, cause market pays cost of your work rather than stressing cash flow of company. Especially when there is growth down the road this is in the best interest of everyone.

Make sure you work this deal with your pick up lawyers. Even better when they are trading in usa as well.

And don’t talk too much. Tell them straight and walk out.

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You don’t have to tell them how much you are currently making, only how much you wish to be paid. It’s illegal to ask salary history during an interview in many states of the US. It’s not illegal in Taiwan, and they will most likely ask, but I don’t see how your current salary is relevant, especially if you are going to relocate to another country for the job.

This won’t work unless the boss is stupid. Why would anyone even talk to a Taiwanese company for a job that is not going to pay nearly as much, if they are already offered an annual salary close to $1M USD by the Americans?

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Agreed :slightly_smiling_face:

Will do. I’ll start high and negotiate from there.

No, single without kids. Parents already nagging to go forth and reproduce.

Will probably be based outside Taipei in an industrial area, but I am not averse to spending time in Taipei as well to socialize.

Not really so interested in perks. Cash in the hand is simpler and better than perks, IMO.

OK thanks, noted.

Great, thanks for pointing it out. I can certainly push the “bring value to the company” point.

Great, thank you :slight_smile:

You’re right, I won’t tell him how much I’m making now.

The real competitor to the Taiwanese is the Mainland Chinese. But this may be a sensitive card to play. The elephant in the room is that people know the Chinese are also hungry for foreign tech, without the attendant risk of being invaded.