So I guess the only religion that isn’t wacky is materialism.
If there’s no afterlife, no spirits, gods, demons, etc., then nothing matters but now right?
The 5 solas
sola scriptura (Scripture alone), solus Christus (Christ alone), sola fide (faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone), and soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone).
I haven’t said anything about materialism. You’ll need to clarify which meaning of the word you’re referring to. See here:
I didn’t say that either, but I don’t find it necessary to make up an afterlife, spirits, gods, or demons for things to “matter”, and I don’t think that making things matter justifies making those things up. Why do you?
Materialism is observable.
EDIT: I apologise. I shouldn’t get involved in this forum.
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I read up on this concept after reading your reply (thank you for that) and it definitely makes more sense than the conventional “faithfulness” interpretation, but it still requires believing in something inherently unbelievable to avoid eternal damnation before you can claim “allegiance” to it. If the belief we are told we must hold to save our eternal souls was something intuitive that we all have some sense of being correct then I could understand this, but the fact is we’re being told we have to believe that’s completely unintuitive - that God is Three but also One, that Jesus is Yahweh, etc.
I have various reasons for not being a fan of Islam but, on the surface, what Muslims insist you must believe is, in fact, more logical (e.g. Jesus was a particularly special prophet, not God himself) and intuitive (that God is One alone) than what Christians insist you must believe. Muslims also give more leeway to the idea that, even though Christians are wrong, Christians can still be saved. This is quite ironic considering that Christianity is the “merciful” religion and Islam is the “intolerant” religion.
I’m pretty sure this is accepted by all mainstream Protestant denominations, at the very least.
I’ve read more books on Christianity than any other topic and have sincerely tried my hardest to believe its claims, but the Trinity has to be the second-biggest thing I can’t wrap my head around after the concept that anybody who doesn’t believe in Jesus is destined for eternal damnation (I know this is mainly an Evangelical Protestant belief, but it is, in fact, the most obvious interpretation of what is actually stated in the New Testament). You’d think that if the Trinity is real, it would have been mentioned in the Bible at least once. I’m aware of the supposed fleeting references in the Old Testament, but these seem tenuous at best for something that’s, apparently, so fundamental to Christian belief (I could say the same thing for the supposed references to Jesus in the Old Testament).
On top of this, a small amount of research into Christian history shows that belief in the Trinity - such a fundamental tenant of modern Christianity - wasn’t even the norm until centuries later and is still rejected by a minority of Christians today. I know Islam has its own schisms, but all the sects except for the extreme minorities agree on the fundamentals. Christianity is a very confused religion.
The Catechism acknowledges that the Blessed Trinity is a “mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone ” but explains that “God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament” (ccc 237).
This is the exact problem. Most of humanity living today, and who have ever existed, will be punished for not believing in something that makes no sense.
Again, you’d think such an important issue would have been mentioned more than merely tenuously (at best) in the Old Testament. If that were the case, there would probably be a lot fewer religious Jews in the world today because it would be a little bit more obvious that Christianity is correct.
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I think that Christianity can be parsed, very roughly, into two parts. One is the effect on you, the other is the effect on others.
For me the greatest comfort that comes from faith comes simply from believing. Believing despite thinking and despite later rumination, which is inevitable. To greatly simplify, I think this explains why our ancestors found such great comfort in Christ the past two millennia or so. Again simplifying, but faith despite the loss of a child, in the face of humanity’s worst instincts, and having faith despite the bad, sometimes horrible, things that befall humans during life can be central to sanity. Faith is a very powerful weapon against bad outcomes.
I think your Janes passage speaks to the second part, the judging of you by others. Others cannot know what’s in your heart and must go by what you do, not by what you say. You may say you believe yet your actions may say otherwise.
As has been said before, the good news is that the palpable and very real good that comes from faith, salvation if you prefer, is available to all.
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God’s nature isn’t supposed to be intuitive. God’s ways are not our ways. Trinity is one thing that we really don’t know why, but scripture makes it pretty clear that’s what it is. Islam claims to believe in those scripture but says that people just changed them to not Islam.
Islam has no concept of salvation. Your good and bad deeds are weighted and your fate is decided on that. Barring few circumstances, no one is assured of heaven, only Allah knows. Furthermore, they have little to no tolerance of disbelief. They demand death for apostasy.
This is my point. The argument I always hear is that we are “rejecting” God’s salvation by not believing in Jesus or the Trinity. But that argument would only make sense if the thing we’re rejecting by not believing in it is intuitive. I can understand the argument from Muslims that the concept of One God ruling over all is intuitive, whereas a pantheon of gods associated with one specific culture ruling over all is not intuitive. But the Trinity isn’t intuitive and Christians themselves say you have to abandon reason to accept it, as you yourself say here. Do you see how insane it is to think that people who “reject” this belief deserve eternal damnation? (I know you don’t believe that yourself from a previous thread but, as I mentioned above, many Christians do believe it and it’s the obvious conclusion to draw from what’s actually stated in the New Testament.)
Also, I beg to differ that scripture is clear about the Trinity.
I’m not here to defend Islam. I’m bringing it up as an ironic comparison as a religion I don’t like and which (rightly, IMO) has a reputation for “intolerance” actually being both more tolerant and logical than Christianity, a religion I do like (but can’t believe). Yes, Islam is an intolerant religion but it does, in fact, leave scope for Christians to be saved (even if the number of Christians is up in the air), whereas the face-value Christian interpretation leaves no scope for Muslims (or any non-Christians) to be saved.
You’ve read Revelation ?
That’s correct , Methodists believe in outside holiness. That doing good works is a sign of salvation, behaving nicely to others also, being a good human being.
One can never be as perfect as Jesus but if one tries then maybe you can aim for it. The Mackay memorial hospital is a sign of good works. Giving to the hungry rather than spending money on oppulent church buildings is a sign of outward holiness.
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It ain’t about me.
Clearly. I just thought that Matthew 7:21 eliminated all doubt in the matter.
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That’s a tough one. I also think the parable of the sheep and goats is something good to ponder. Notice the righteous are as confused as the unrighteous. Yeah, I think there will be a lot of surprises during judgement, if you believe in that. “I never knew you. Depart from me.”
Matthew 25:31-46
New International Version
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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No. The righteous were in the border place between heaven and hell awaiting redemption.
In Christian theology, the Harrowing of Hell (Latin: Descensus Christi ad Inferos, “the descent of Christ into Hell” or Hades)(Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia) is the period of time between the Crucifixion of Jesus and his resurrection. In triumphant descent, Christ brought salvation to the souls held captive there since the beginning of the world.
Christ’s descent into the world of the dead is referred to in the Apostles’ Creed and the Athanasian Creed (Quicumque vult), which state that he “descended into the underworld” (descendit ad inferos), although neither mention that he liberated the dead. His descent to the underworld is alluded to in the New Testament in 1 Peter 4:6, which states that the “good tidings were proclaimed to the dead”.(Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia) The Catechism of the Catholic Church notes Ephesians 4:9, which states that “[Christ] descended into the lower parts of the earth”, as also supporting this interpretation.(Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia) These passages in the New Testament have given rise to differing interpretations.(Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia) The Harrowing of Hell is commemorated in the liturgical calendar on Holy Saturday.
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I like the Harrowing of Hell, but since He also told the repentant thief on the cross “Verily I say unto you, today shalt thou be with me in paradise”, Jesus must have popped up to Heaven, waited for the thief there, and after that descended into Hell.
The story of the thief is why some protestants discount the Harrowing; others hold that the descent into Hell was part of Jesus’s suffering and He was tormented while there, and didn’t turn up in triumph until the actual Resurrection.
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Catholics have a much better solution to the epistemological problem.
Evangelicals have the most effed up soteriology. Born in the wrong time and place? Sorry buddy, have fun in hell.
I have a hard time believing Jesus’s earthly father Joseph is burning in Hell