Exactly! Most Muslims and Arabs are just as confused about what is going on in their societies. It does not have to end up like Germany with Hitler. It could end up like France with de Gaulle or ideally England with a strong rule of law. Said was a typical whiner on the Left always blaming the West for creating the Other which he defined as “orientalism.” I was always confused though why he and other Arab writers were allowed to criticize the US and the West for its Orientalism but no one thought to target him back for he and his fellow writers Occidentalism. I mean wasn’t he equally guilty of labeling the West and reducing it to one-dimensionalism?
So, is that an example of true or faux hate speech? Just curious.
Seeker4[/quote]
T’would be a broad definition of hate speech indeed that included within its parameters contempt for people that is based not on their race, gender or religion, but rather on the policies and ideas that they espouse.
So I guess the answer regarding Fred’s contempt is: none of the above. 
[/quote]
Hobbes, you’re right of course. I guess I was just trying to point out, a bit tongue-in-cheek, that it seemed ironic to talk about hate speech in a hateful way. Brings up the same sort of dilemma that exists when people denouncing intolerance do it without tolerance. An easy trap to fall into.
[quote=“jdsmith”]seeker, good work. I too became very interested in this subject after 9/11.
Bernard Lewis helped me see things a bit more clearly.
Let us know if you get a response from the site. I imagine everyone is sleeping there now.[/quote]
jdsmith, Freedom House responded with a direct link to their report. Apparently it is still not posted on their website. It is long, but I think I’m going to try to get through it. Just as an aside, take a look within the report at the Board of Trustees of the Freedom House – interesting:
freedomhouse.org/religion/pdfdoc … 0Saudi.pdf
Seeker4
Saudi Arabia, what to do?
(a) Encourage democracy, watch as populist Muslim clerics win all elections
(b) Prop up one or another of the 7000 or so royals, and be ready for the inevitable backlash when one of the others wants to plane-bomb a trade center or something
© Convert them to Christianity, kill the rest, let God sort them out, etc.
If (a) seems bad to you, ask yourself–what exactly is so terrible about Wahhabism? Is it any worse than Baptistism?
[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]
If (a) seems bad to you, ask yourself–what exactly is so terrible about Wahhabism? Is it any worse than Baptistism?[/quote]
I haven’t heard Billy Graham calling for Southern Baptists to rise up and behead Muslims.
[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]Saudi Arabia, what to do?
(a) Encourage democracy, watch as populist Muslim clerics win all elections
(b) Prop up one or another of the 7000 or so royals, and be ready for the inevitable backlash when one of the others wants to plane-bomb a trade center or something
© Convert them to Christianity, kill the rest, let God sort them out, etc.
If (a) seems bad to you, ask yourself–what exactly is so terrible about Wahhabism? Is it any worse than Baptistism?[/quote]
I do not even see a remote connection between Baptists and Wahhabists.
How about encourage local democracy, as done in China…there is no way national elections could be held in SA…You are right, the result would be worse that what is now going on in Iran. But training and encouraging people to think and handle local, neighborhood problems on their own is not a bad start.
If you want an example of Muslim “fundamentalist” thinking, look at Saudi “reconstruction aid” in Bosnia and Kosovo. At the hands of Saudi Wahhabists, historic mosques were defaced, gutted, and redone with drywall and whitewash. Calligraphy, iconography, and ornate tile work were destroyed, because they were considered idolatrous. Even graveyards were desecrated, because monuments to dead infidels are likewise idols. So the Saudis wiped out centuries of Islamic art and architecture that had survived Nazism, Communism, and the rampaging Serbs.
I see Southern Baptists more like Disney people, both of which are engaged in a "worldwide missionary expansion of illusional entertainment. With the Southern Baptist Convention it is sometimes difficult to tell religion from Prozac, Christianity from chloroform, and baptism from lobotomy 
What denomination is Pat Robertson?
Actually, democracy in Iran would be very, very bad for the clerics. Who know this full well, and act accordingly.