Saudis sentence Canadian man to public beheading in 30 days

Discussion Open Forum
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theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ … al/Africa/

Saudis sentence Canadian to death
Young man hopes to launch appeal after conviction for murder related to schoolyard brawl

COLIN FREEZE

March 4, 2008

A young Canadian citizen was sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia yesterday, convicted of murder in relation to a schoolyard brawl that turned deadly last year.

Observers, who point out that the kingdom has not executed a Westerner in decades, are pinning their hopes on an appeal in coming months.

The beheading sentence could strain Canada-Saudi relations, already suffering the fallout from another death-penalty case in 2000, and also emerge as an issue for the Conservative government as it decides how aggressively it should fight for one of its citizens.

The case revolves around the death of 18-year-old Syrian Munzer Haraki in a fight that broke out after Mr. Kohail’s younger brother, Sultan, is alleged to have insulted Raneem Haraki, a girl he knew from a Muslim school in Montreal. Competing theories ascribe Mr. Haraki’s death to a blow to the head or internal bleeding from a fall.

Sultan Kohail has been released from prison, but Mohamed Kohail and another man have now been sentenced to death. The two brothers received their Canadian citizenship in 2005 before returning to Saudi Arabia, where they grew up.

Those pesky Saudis. When will they ever learn these things are not good for foreign relations? I wouldn’t want to be a middle-eastern person in Canada the day the video of his execution hits Youtube with the fanatical cheering mob. :noway:

Religion of peace my ass.

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[quote=“trebuchet”]Those pesky Saudis. When will they ever learn these things are not good for foreign relations? I wouldn’t want to be a middle-eastern person in Canada the day the video of his execution hits Youtube with the fanatical cheering mob. :noway:

Religion of peace my ass.[/quote]

Hell, Canadians are being executed by fanatics all over the world.

theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ … ional/home

Those pesky Americans. Religion of peace my ass.

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[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“trebuchet”]Those pesky Saudis. When will they ever learn these things are not good for foreign relations? I wouldn’t want to be a middle-eastern person in Canada the day the video of his execution hits Youtube with the fanatical cheering mob. :noway:

Religion of peace my ass.[/quote]

Hell, Canadians are being executed by fanatics all over the world.

[/quote]

Yeah, it seems odd but everytime a foreigner is on the chopping block for murder or drug peddling or basically anything carrying a death penalty in a foreign country it seems it’s a Canadian. What the hell is up with that?

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[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“trebuchet”]Those pesky Saudis. When will they ever learn these things are not good for foreign relations? I wouldn’t want to be a middle-eastern person in Canada the day the video of his execution hits Youtube with the fanatical cheering mob. :noway:

Religion of peace my ass.[/quote]

Hell, Canadians are being executed by fanatics all over the world.

theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ … ional/home

Those pesky Americans. Religion of peace my ass.[/quote]

That’s part of the problem…
But he said the government is in an awkward position after a recent decision not to seek clemency in a death penalty case in the United States.

“It has already precluded the standard request for clemency to only request clemency in those cases where it disagrees with the judicial or legal system of another country,” he said.

“They are starting off from a position that is potentially difficult, not to mention potentially insulting.”
thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1041688.html

I don’t know why the Canadian government chose not to persue clemency, but nevertheless, Canada could have chosen to disagree with the American legal system but chose not to.

Saudi Arabia is a different kettle of fish. Their legal system is said to be notoriously unfair.There’s doubt to whether on not this guy is actually guilty.
Not to mention, they plan to behead the guy, publicly, in front of spectators and most likely cameras.

He’s the one on the right. His brother is in jail with him. :frowning:
Hopefully Saudi Arabia will realize that having the world watch one or both of these boys get beheaded on YouTube isn’t going to win them any friends.

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Self loathing is quite a fascinating behavior trait.

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and nobody cares? :idunno:

Here’s why I find this issue interesting, and wish some of you would put in your .02.

  1. Saudi Arabia hasn’t executed a Westerner in decades. Why the change in policy all of the sudden? It’s not as if they’re unaware of the potential implications. I wonder if they’re testing Canada. No doubt they paid attention to Canada’s announcement that they would no longer seek clemency for westerners in democratic countries. What are they trying to achieve?

  2. Another aspect is that while this guy has been a Canadian citizen for the past 8 years or so, a lot of Canadians don’t regard him as a “real” Canadian. Source for this belief: http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=61986&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
    Thus, if Canada doesn’t make a serious effort to help the two brothers (both are sentenced to death, and both have Canadian passports), it sends a message to recent emigrants to Canada that that they aren’t going to like.

  3. Worse, brown people who live in Canada are going to ask themselves “would they try harder to help him if he were white?”. Again, making the recent Middle Eastern population of Canada feel alienated and treated differently isn’t a good idea. Makes it that much easier for the Imams to reach out and find another bunch like the Toronto 18.

  4. So, basically, is in a damned if they do, damned if they don’t situation, and I don’t envy the people whose job it is to decide what to do. :frowning:

  5. Pissing off Saudi Arabia? Why would Canada be afraid to do that? What’s to fear?

  6. Finally, if both boys are executed, it paves the way for…what message does this send? I can’t help but wonder if the Saudis are testing Canada to see how much they can get away with. The spin that is put on this story by the media in the Middle East will be interesting. though stomach-churning, to observe. One of the UK papers translated some of the comments from an Arabic forum, and after I read a few i didn’t want to read any more. :raspberry:

I’m done now. Does anyone have any non-silly thoughts?
Here’s a lengthy, though thorough article if you need more background:
canada.com/globaltv/national … 65&k=49736

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[quote=“trebuchet”]2. Another aspect is that while this guy has been a Canadian citizen for the past 8 years or so, a lot of Canadians don’t regard him as a “real” Canadian. Source for this belief: http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=61986&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
Thus, if Canada doesn’t make a serious effort to help the two brothers (both are sentenced to death, and both have Canadian passports), it sends a message to recent emigrants to Canada that that they aren’t going to like. [/quote]

Not yet he isn’t. He’s a youth and hasn’t yet set his roots. It’s one thing to have a passport but quite another to have a rooted family and/or have served in our military. I won’t battle anyone on my beliefs so feel free to jabber on.

On a side note, this beheading thing has got me so riled up that I refuse to believe, untill sat down, talked to, and possibly schooled on this so called religion of peace and tolerance. Sorry. It’s 2008 not 1008. Oh and please don’t post links and crap to murders and our own downfalls because I’m well aware of that shit.

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assuming the Canadian was tried and convicted fairly under valid Saudi law,
I don’t see any problem with it. (for example, if a Saudi charged with the
same crime receives the same punishment) To ask the Saudis to intervene
in their own legal process is not only disrepectfu, but also likely to undermine
the legal system. On the other hand, I see no harm in asking the Saudi
royals to grant the young men some clemency and commute his sentence to
life in prison… or something like that…

Whether or not Canada has the death penalty is besides the point. I believe
there are Canadians on death row in US prisons… nothing that Canada can
do about it.

When I am in a foreign county, I always respect and obey all local laws.

If I’m partying in Amesterdam, I’ll smoke pot as much as I afford and not
be afraid of getting in trouble with the law. (hint… best place is the theme
cafe two blocks from the Rijksmuseum :smiley: )

If I then fly to Singapore, I would make damm bloody sure that I don’t have
even a trace amount of pot in my system.

off-topic: I personally do not believe in the death penalty… but that’s just my
personal opinion. :slight_smile:

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In the end, I’m glad it’s his own people killing him off and not the Canadians. The West has enough bad press. Dirt offa shoulder. Peace.

ALLAH AKBAR…BOOM

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I see this as part of a larger problem that affects all of us Westerners. I do not like this “Religion of Peace”'s habit of gradually testing our boundaries, seeing how much we will take, getting their foot in the door, etc, that is happening across the western world, most rapidly in Europe, and as far as I’m concerned, what happens to one of us happens to all of us. How many of us have thought of teaching in Saudi someday?
Not long ago an American ESL teacher was sentenced to lashings for not wearing a headscarf in public, or something like that, and I believe the Saudis have been stepping up their punishments of Westerners in general.
I fear that this is a test case, and not the last of the bad news we’ll be hearing out of Saudi. :raspberry:
I was relieved to hear that the Canadian government decided to pursue clemency.

How many Taiwanese do you know who went to have their kids in a western country so that their kids would have dual citizenship? They’re going to be watching this closely - btw, it made the Taipei Times this morning.

Kudos to the Canadian government for not just caving in. :notworthy:

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[quote=“Mother Theresa”][quote=“trebuchet”]Those pesky Saudis. When will they ever learn these things are not good for foreign relations? I wouldn’t want to be a middle-eastern person in Canada the day the video of his execution hits Youtube with the fanatical cheering mob. :noway:

Religion of peace my ass.[/quote]

Hell, Canadians are being executed by fanatics all over the world.

theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ … ional/home

Those pesky Americans. Religion of peace my ass.[/quote]
I’m assuming you have heard of ‘separation of church and state’? The USA has it, Saudi Arabia does not.
In that regard, these two cases are not the same. Nice try though. :wink:

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Whatever. :unamused:

As far as I know, the Canadian wasn’t sentenced to death by the Saudis for violating the koran; he was tried and convicted for murder. The OP appeared to be using that as a basis for suggesting that muslim is a cruel religion.

I was just pointing out that Americans also intend to execute a Canadian who was tried and convicted for murder and America is a predominantly Christian nation.

If one is upset about the former, and believes it’s an indication of how cruel Muslims are, I believe it’s worth looking into the latter as well to see if Americans and Christians are any less cruel.

After all, almost the entire world has outlawed the death penalty except for a handful of rogue nations such as Afghanistan, China, Egypt, Iran, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Vietnam and the US; and well over 100 wrongly convicted prisoners sitting on death row in the US have been exonerated and released due to DNA evidence and the like. Many feel state-sanctioned murder in the US is no less cruel.

And contrary to purplepeopleeater’s idiotic post suggesting that I’m self-loathing, I’m perfectly content with myself and I love the USA. But I think when people cast stones at other nations, religions and cultures, they should also look in their own back yard to see if their own is any better.

Btw, do you believe the Canadian in Saudi Arabia is innocent of the murder he was convicted of? What’s the evidence?

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MT,

Innocent? I don’t know about that, who knows? I don’t really feel like having another look at the story until there’s more political development.
But from what i remember, nobody is debating the point that he didn’t get a fair trial. Witnesses for the defense were prohibited from attending the trial, and basically, the victim, who also had some kind of medical conditon, died after the fighting, which got videotaped and I don’t care to watch it. In the US we’d call it manslaughter. Oh, and he confessed after being tortured in prison.
Amnesty Internationals going to bat for him, I think.

I don’t think any comparisons to any other countries are necessary, the story is interesting enough as it is.

EDIT: I’d like to point out, in my first post in this thread, was:

If this were an episode of CSI, it wouldn’t be so difficult to imagine how a fair jury could find him innocent, right? In any case, if this is true, I’m inclined to believe that at the very least, Kohail probably didn’t intend to kill him. How do you premeditate a murder and plan out how to have the victim fall exactly he right way, or deliver just the precise blow to the head, at least with out extensive fight training, which nobody’s claiming he had. Even people who support the death penalty don’t believe it should be given in such cases as this.
Sorry if my anti-Saudi sentiments offended anyone, but I was kinda angry, and still am. :frowning:

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Update on the political fallout:http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=357803

Are our diplomats that dense?

It’s not the first time Stockwell Day is getting a bit of a bum rap from critics and journalists. Canada’s favourite political punching bag is being worked over this morning thanks to the case of Mohamed Kohail, a 23-year-old dual citizen of Canada and Saudi Arabia who is currently awaiting a death sentence in the desert kingdom for being part of a mob that invaded a schoolyard and killed a student in a mass brawl. Last year the justice department refused to lobby for the life of Ronald Allen Smith, an Alberta man facing lethal injection in Montana for a heinous murder no one seriously doubts he committed, and for which he received a fair trial a quarter-century ago. The public safety minister became the point man for a new policy of assisting Canadians threatened with capital punishment abroad on a “case-by-case basis” instead of aggressively trying to prevent its exercise everywhere.

The concern now being raised is that if Canada will not ask the United States for clemency on behalf of Ronald Smith, it cannot reasonably ask Saudi Arabia to spare Mohamed Kohail:We have retreated one tiny little inch on the holy principle of total, unconditional opposition to capital punishment, and now we are completely helpless to request that our imprisoned citizens be given any rights at all.

Countries X and Y, you see, will sit perfectly still and listen sympathetically while Canadians denounce them for having the death penalty-- but any other form of advocacy, or even simply asking them not to kill our citizens as a favour, is totally out of bounds.

The weaving of such fantasies would not be so objectionable if it did not, in fact, put Mohamed Kohail’s life in greater danger with every word by goading those who will decide his fate. Liberal MP Dan McTeague tore into the Harper government yesterday, calling its request

for clemency an “insult” to the Saudi kingdom. This is how our opposition apparently goes about protecting our citizens abroad – by encouraging the view that foreign countries have perfectly good reasons to feel “insulted” if they are approached by our consular officials with questions about a criminal trial. Golly, Dan, couldn’t you find a free day in your schedule to go sharpen up the executioner’s sword for him?

McTeague added that treating Saudi Arabia differently from the United States would indicate “that you disagree firmly with the nation. You bring into question its judicial, its legal, perhaps even its political process.” Pardon me for asking, but doesn’t Canada, in fact, question those things? Hell, the Saudi monarchy itself questions them, which is why the country is in the midst of judicial reform.

Why is Canada so afraid to insult Saudi Arabia’s judicial system? Can someone answer this? I don’t get it.

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Does Mr. Kohail have dual nationality?

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Nope. The parents are actually Palestinian, and thus were never granted citizenship in Saudi. The brothers had residency in Saudi Arabia, but never citizenship. The only country where they have citizenship is Canada.

If the Saudis are looking for a Westerner to make an example of, to set a precedent that will make it even harder for other countries to protect their citizens from whatever the Saudis care to dish out in the future, they sure did pick a good victim. Non-white, legally Western, yet, just “not western enough” for us to maybe not notice. What concerns me is not so much this case but who will the next one be. They haven’t executed a westerner in decades, and since even the Saudis are debating the possibility of his innocence, the sudden change in policy doesn’t really fit the “crime”. Does anyone really think it’s going to be decades before they execute another one?

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If the Canadian Government complains, the Saudis will get bored exceedingly quickly; what needs to happen is for the Canadian head of state, The Queen, to get in touch with her peer and it will all be sorted out in no time.

BroonAlfaizal

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[quote=“BroonAle”]If the Canadian Government complains, the Saudis will get bored exceedingly quickly; what needs to happen is for the Canadian head of state, The Queen, to get in touch with her peer and it will all be sorted out in no time.

BroonAlfaizal[/quote]

Reminds me of this joke:

An Englishman, a Canadian and an American were captured by Muslim terrorists.

The terrorist leader said: “Before we decapitate you, you will be allowed last words. Please let me know what you wish to talk about.”

The Englishman replied: “I wish to speak of loyalty and service to the crown.”

The Canadian replied: “Since you are involved in a question of national purpose, national identity, and secession, I wish to talk about the history of constitutional process in Canada, special status, distinct society and uniqueness within diversity.”

The American replied: “Just kill me before the Canadian starts talking.”

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[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“BroonAle”]If the Canadian Government complains, the Saudis will get bored exceedingly quickly; what needs to happen is for the Canadian head of state, The Queen, to get in touch with her peer and it will all be sorted out in no time.

BroonAlfaizal[/quote]

Reminds me of this joke:

An Englishman, a Canadian and an American were captured by Muslim terrorists.

The terrorist leader said: “Before we decapitate you, you will be allowed last words. Please let me know what you wish to talk about.”

The Englishman replied: “I wish to speak of loyalty and service to the crown.”

The Canadian replied: “Since you are involved in a question of national purpose, national identity, and secession, I wish to talk about the history of constitutional process in Canada, special status, distinct society and uniqueness within diversity.”

The American replied: “Just kill me before the Canadian starts talking.”[/quote]

Almost my point exactly. :laughing:

BroonAgrees

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Self loathing is quite a fascinating behavior trait.[/quote]

You are just one of those chest-thumping Ameri-apes the world loves to loathe. :upyours:

BroonAggro