Science (er rather SCIENCE) vs climate change models

Hmmmm are we in favor of SCIENCE or are we in favor of FAITH in models no matter what the apparent results? You judge.

[quote]Steve Milloy: Models, Not Climate, Are Hypersensitive to Carbon Dioxide
Posted on August 24, 2012 by Editor

[color=#FF8040]
The Kyoto Protocol is expiring this year, having accomplished what climate skeptics expected — nothing.
[/color] Manmade greenhouse gas emissions and atmospheric greenhouse are up while global temperature have gone nowhere, the latter a trend that started years before Kyoto went into effect. But before the international climate kleptocracy descends en masse to its next exotic location (Doha, Qatar in November 2012) to try breathing life into the Kyoto Protocol, someone should check under the hood to review what is trying to be achieved and why. JunkScience.com has done this work and we have come to the conclusion that the Kyoto Protocol is a clunker that should be allowed to expire without progeny. As a column like this is too short to cover any real detail, we have prepared about 20 pages of explanation in downloadable PDF format. But here is a very brief and simplified overview.

Climate concern originally began because the planet appeared to have warmed about seven tenths of one degree (0.7o) Celsius since preindustrial times. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, these events are seen by alarmists as related and, therefore, human activity causal of the rise in global mean temperature. Some people still ask how we know what the global temperature is or should be, so here’s a quick refresher:
We know the size and emission temperature of the sun, how far away it is and how much sunlight the Earth intercepts. We’ve got a pretty good idea what proportion of sunlight is reflected away without warming the Earth, so we know its effective equilibrium temperature (the temperature at which it radiates energy to space to balance the amount it gets from the sun). We also know that within the atmosphere, below the point where incoming and outgoing radiation is in balance, we have a nice little life-friendly incubator of atmosphere warmed by compression, conduction, evaporation and transpiration and through absorption of infrared radiation. The greenhouse effect you hear so much about is because the atmosphere is composed of some infrared radiation absorbers, mainly water in its various forms but including carbon dioxide (CO2), inter alia, which absorb and re-radiate energy helping to keep the lower atmosphere warmer. As the warmed air is displaced by cooler, more dense air it is forced upward where it expands in the lower pressure, cooling until there are no absorbers remaining and energy is radiated to space, balancing that coming from the sun. Enhanced greenhouse theory postulates that adding more absorbers, like CO2, will absorb more infrared near the surface and increase temperatures in the zone where we live. Based on atmospheric modeling, a doubling of pre-industrial era CO2 levels was thought to yield an increase of about 1.2ºC in surface temperature.

It turns out that base estimate is a dud — i.e., it is far too large.
[color=#BF00FF]We know this because the — gasp — the alarmist Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) tells us so.[/color]
The method for calculating a change in forcing (something that makes temperature change) is net “down minus up” expressed in Watts per meter squared (W/m2). The IPCC is most definite that a doubling of atmospheric CO2 adds 3.7 W/m2. This makes the calculation actually: incoming solar radiation minus albedo plus feedback, which (if you do the math like we have) resolves to less than a 0.7ºC increase from a doubling of CO2 – not 1.2ºC. Unfortunately for alarmists, the situation goes downhill from there. Climate models have been tortured to guesstimate future climate decades and even a century in advance even though they are not suited to that purpose. They are merely process models which, like economists, can be very helpful for understanding what we have seen but useless for telling us what we will see. Because we do not fully understand the climate system and do not know how to represent such important functions as cloud formation — and we still lack sufficient processing power to represent the Earth at fine enough resolution to capture such important heat transports as thunderstorms — many of Earth’s climate processes are parameterized (i.e., faked) in models. Also because we do not really know how to model the climate we pretend some things are more important than they really are — like making CO2 responsible for a large effect because we don’t know what is required for models to properly calculate near-surface temperature, for example. CO2 levels are used simply as a multiplier to adjust model output to more or less match previously measured temperatures. But this still isn’t enough, so marvelous magical multipliers are applied to further magnify CO2‘s alleged effect in an effort to curve-fit historical measures. Unfortunately for modelers (and their alarmist backers), the world doesn’t believe them. The world is not warming in response to increasing atmospheric CO2.

According to the Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC) we have already added 3.15 W/m2 worth of additional forcing from greenhouse gases — some 85% of the figure for a doubling of CO2. As the doubling of CO2 is supposed to have yielded 3oC warming, we should have seen 85% of 3oC, a little over 2.5oC. We have not.
[color=#00BFFF]According to the most recent IPCC Assessment Report 4 (p103, AR4 WG1 FAQs) we’ve only seen 0.7oC from enhanced greenhouse — and land use change, black and brown carbon (soot and smoke) and everything else of which humanity stands accused. While it’s a long list, there has been little global temperature effect.[/color]
This means the marvelous magical multipliers used in the models should actually be divisors. And there are good logical reasons this should be so. While climate models always treat clouds as warming influences, anyone trying to catch some rays and interrupted by intervening cumulonimbi would beg to differ. Some will claim this is because warming takes a long time to equilibrate and that most of the warming is “in the pipeline.” That’s outright nonsense.

As the National Climatic Data Center points out, Earth reacts rapidly to the extra absorption of incoming solar radiation by northern hemisphere land masses, increasing the planet’s mean temperature by almost 4oC from January to July and cooling back to January again. The mean land surface temperature changes more than 11oC over the same period. In our new analysis, we provide a multi-source time series of Earth’s warming and subsequent cooling with the 1997-1998 “super El Niño” event — it was done and dusted in under 30 months. We also use Earth’s natural greenhouse effect as a template to determine that doubling the atmosphere’s CO2 will only deliver 0.4oC warming, over half of which has already occurred unnoticed in the background of natural variation many times larger. Check out our analysis for a lot more and you too will be asking, “Where did they get a crazy idea like that?” Climate models are hypersensitive — but Earth isn’t.[/quote]

I was skeptical, but once I saw that you used a larger purple font I was convinced.

At least you aren’t trolling this topic.

That would require the possibility of independent thought. You are brainwashed.

One does not know how to take this. Are you thus convinced that the IPCC has made this statement and that it is relevant to this argument OR that the IPCC did not make this statement and thus it is irrelevant OR that the IPCC might have made this statement but it does not change the calculus used by the climate change alarmists that global warming is advancing… er… alarmingly?

I am not trolling on any topic. The fact is that you merely disagree with my assertions, cannot effectively counter them and thus choose to make this an issue of trolling. All of the assertions are statements. You could counter any of them if you chose to do so, which you have not, so then… who is really trolling? Just a thought…

Could/Would?will you possibly kindly summate the dichotomy into two sentences to prevent us all from falling into semantic disputations?

Much appreciated, Freddo.

could? would? what?

define the dichotomy that you want "summated?

Fine. How’s this?

Climate models and their forecasts prove incorrect.

Climate change has caused temperatures to rise far less than was predicted by said models.

Your use of words that you cannot “control” is like watching a five-year old girl try to wear her mommy’s high heels… wobbly wobbly wobbly
Much appreciated, Freddo.

Seeing as you seem to have discovered the ability to travel forwards in time to the year 2050 and even out to 2100, do you mind sharing next week’s lottery results? There’s a dear.

How precious. Was I the one predicting climate change caused disaster? impending or otherwise? No. It was the likes of you who said that we KNEW that climate change was happening by what the models PROVED. Now, that they are not proving anything of the kind, why would I want to predict future climate? I said the models cannot do anything of the sort. I was right. You were wrong (as usual). So? What is your point? That because you know nothing about future climate that you think that I should be obligated to make some sort of prediction when I have said all along that we do not have the ability to accurately do so? How in the name of God does that make sense? I suggest that you remind us once again that you studied climate change with what’s his name in Australia and that because of this, you have made climatology a lifelong dedication and profession and thus… er… no… wait… um… so … no that cannot be… so confusing… er… um… yes… or is it no? well, maybe then… yes… wait… no… Oh God… er… models… that climate change… polar bears… Arctic ice… my friends on Facebook… so important… to um… make a difference… that is why… we must act… even if we … um… don’t know… because to … um… er… act is better… than um… to um… NOT… yes that’s it… act… right?

The models have always focused on the future. IPCC etc has always said that the major adverse effects will be seen in the second half of this century. If you’ve missed such a basic part of the science, then it certainly explains why you keep beating your dead horse. Of course we haven’t seen large temperature increases or sea level rises or loss of large glaciers or billions of $ in economic losses etc, yet. We’re not supposed to have.

Fella, the only strategy to adopt with FS is a confucian one. Any direct approach will not work.

Yeah, um, most models do.

Okay, prove it by posting it. And then show me how this has any bearing on the discussion of climate change models IF as the IPCC says the formula for measuring CO2 on climate is as already posted.

Okay. Then show me where the climate predictions were as you seem to be suggesting.

No, but if the formula is correctly stated above then we may not. That is the point. The criticism is that the models have been and are being tweaked to prove that climate change alarmism is correct rather than showing that we may be in line for only half or less of the predicted temperature increases, and most important, the latter represents the reality not the forced conclusion.

I doubt that you have any understanding of Confucius or Confucian strategies but let’s let you have enough rope to hang yourself. How would Confucian not be direct? and how is that relevant to this discussion?

So much more to say but let’s hear from you first. You should not use words or concepts that you don’t understand. You will just embarrass yourself. Whoops. Too late.

Fella, the only strategy to adopt with FS is a confucian one. Any direct approach will not work.[/quote]

True. Especially now that I know that all along he’s been thinking the stuff that’s supposed to happen in 50+ years should be happening now. No wonder he gets it wrong so often.

[quote=“fred smith”]
Okay, prove it by posting it. And then show me how this has any bearing on the discussion of climate change models IF as the IPCC says the formula for measuring CO2 on climate is as already posted.

Okay. Then show me where the climate predictions were as you seem to be suggesting.[/quote]

FFS, you know the IPCC? That organization that you love to criticize? Remember that one? Take a look at any of their reports. I’ll even give you an image to start you off.

Notice where those models go out to. Notice where the major increases are. Now go and read the rest of the report seeing as you’ve obviously never bothered to learn the most basic, fundamental aspects. In a few months when you get your head around it, maybe then you’ll be able to make some kind of useful contribution to the discussion.

But why?

Yup and what are those differences in increased based on? Different formulas?

Would you like to take that back? Or would you like to stand judged by the same statement? Your choice.

Well, that will certainly make a pretty picture, won’t it?

But why?

Yup and what are those differences in increased based on? Different formulas?

Would you like to take that back? Or would you like to stand judged by the same statement? Your choice.

Well, that will certainly make a pretty picture, won’t it?[/quote]

If / when you go and read it, all those questions will be answered. Now go be a good little student and make a start on your homework. See you in a few months when you’ll hopefully have something to add.

Let me add this now to save time in reaching your denouement…

[quote]A1The A1 scenarios are of a more integrated world. The A1 family of scenarios is characterized by:

Rapid economic growth.
A global population that reaches 9 billion in 2050 and then gradually declines.
The quick spread of new and efficient technologies.
A convergent world - income and way of life converge between regions. Extensive social and cultural interactions worldwide.
There are subsets to the A1 family based on their technological emphasis:

A1FI - An emphasis on fossil-fuels (Fossil Intensive).
A1B - A balanced emphasis on all energy sources.
A1T - Emphasis on non-fossil energy sources.
[edit] A2The A2 scenarios are of a more divided world. The A2 family of scenarios is characterized by:

A world of independently operating, self-reliant nations.
Continuously increasing population.
Regionally oriented economic development.
[edit] B1The B1 scenarios are of a world more integrated, and more ecologically friendly. The B1 scenarios are characterized by:

Rapid economic growth as in A1, but with rapid changes towards a service and information economy.
Population rising to 9 billion in 2050 and then declining as in A1.
Reductions in material intensity and the introduction of clean and resource efficient technologies.
An emphasis on global solutions to economic, social and environmental stability.
[edit] B2The B2 scenarios are of a world more divided, but more ecologically friendly. The B2 scenarios are characterized by:

Continuously increasing population, but at a slower rate than in A2.
Emphasis on local rather than global solutions to economic, social and environmental stability.
Intermediate levels of economic development.
Less rapid and more fragmented technological change than in A1 and B1. [/quote]

You do realize, do you not? that the graph that you have provided is a prediction of climate (world temperatures) based on scenarios envisaging CO2 imputs based on the above factors and that this is NOT in any way related to the formula being questioned above. What I have provided is a questioning of the very formula, itself. Your predictions are irrelvant to that discussion. So, um, would YOU like to go back and read the IPCC report since you, er, seem to be unsure as to what those graphs and predictions mean?

Just to revisit the key section of this article and how it relates to this debate…

[quote]Climate concern originally began because the planet appeared to have warmed about seven tenths of one degree (0.7o) Celsius since preindustrial times. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, these events are seen by alarmists as related and, therefore, human activity causal of the rise in global mean temperature. Some people still ask how we know what the global temperature is or should be, so here’s a quick refresher:
We know the size and emission temperature of the sun, how far away it is and how much sunlight the Earth intercepts. We’ve got a pretty good idea what proportion of sunlight is reflected away without warming the Earth, so we know its effective equilibrium temperature (the temperature at which it radiates energy to space to balance the amount it gets from the sun). We also know that within the atmosphere, below the point where incoming and outgoing radiation is in balance, we have a nice little life-friendly incubator of atmosphere warmed by compression, conduction, evaporation and transpiration and through absorption of infrared radiation. The greenhouse effect you hear so much about is because the atmosphere is composed of some infrared radiation absorbers, mainly water in its various forms but including carbon dioxide (CO2), inter alia, which absorb and re-radiate energy helping to keep the lower atmosphere warmer. As the warmed air is displaced by cooler, more dense air it is forced upward where it expands in the lower pressure, cooling until there are no absorbers remaining and energy is radiated to space, balancing that coming from the sun. Enhanced greenhouse theory postulates that adding more absorbers, like CO2, will absorb more infrared near the surface and increase temperatures in the zone where we live. [color=#4040FF]
Based on atmospheric modeling, a doubling of pre-industrial era CO2 levels was thought to yield an increase of about 1.2ºC in surface temperature.
[/color]It turns out that base estimate is a dud — i.e., it is far too large. We know this because the — gasp — the alarmist Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) tells us so.The method for calculating a change in forcing (something that makes temperature change) is net “down minus up” expressed in Watts per meter squared (W/m2). [color=#FF0000]
The IPCC is most definite that a doubling of atmospheric CO2 adds 3.7 W/m2. This makes the calculation actually: incoming solar radiation minus albedo plus feedback, which (if you do the math like we have) resolves to less than a 0.7ºC increase from a doubling of CO2 – not 1.2ºC.
[/color] [/quote]

So, er, can you explain how your graph of scenarios where more or less CO2 is added to the atmosphere and thus raises temperatures is relevant to whether the formula used to MEASURE how CO2 increases climate is relevant to this particular debate? Think carefully. You might, as you have said, wish to go back and read the IPCC report? Yes? But then, I am sure that it is quite easy for you with all of your climate change knowledge and expertise because you studied with that famous Austrlian climatologist, er what’s his name? to respond to how you could confuse two very basic elements of the climate change modeling parameters. Surely, you can, right? RIGHT?

One finds a pathos in reading your agreement with the Confucianism expert Superking here on what is supposed to be happening in 50 years, all while you fail to understand that the very models used by your beloved IPCC contain an apparent contradiction that would suggest that a doubling of CO2 will lead to half the predicted temperature increases… in 50 years… or more… so, which is it? Is the IPCC wrong or is it wrong? Either the formula is correct and only half the temperature increased predicted by the models will occur or the formula is wrong and then one wonders what the hell the IPCC climate change models are based upon, but wait! let’s find out! Here!

Sorta kinda like the formula above? Maybe?

Hah! Understatement of the year.

[quote]According to physicist Richard Feynman:

It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong.[/quote]

Amen brother and now for the top 10 mistakes… Oh dearie me…

[quote]The recent empirical observations showing that the Sun is entering an exceptionally low period of activity were immediately ‘countered’ by the climate alarmist community trumpeting a computer model to supposedly prove negligible effect of a Grand Solar Minimum upon climate. This prompts a list of the top 10 reasons why climate model predictions are false:

  1. Even the IPCC admits the climate models have not been verified by empirical observations to assess confidence. The fine print of the IPCC 2007 Report contains this admission:

Assessments of our relative confidence in climate projections from different models should ideally be based on a comprehensive set of observational tests that would allow us to quantify model errors in simulating a wide variety of climate statistics, including simulations of the mean climate and variability and of particular climate processes.
In the final paragraph of this critical section of the AR4 WG1 Chapter 8 page 52 the IPCC states that

a number of diagnostic tests [of the models] have been proposed, but few of them have been applied to the models currently in use.
In fact, the models have performed poorly in comparison to observations, with global temperatures failing to even remain above the lower bound predicted by the IPCC, despite the steady rise in CO2 levels:

  1. Furthermore, the IPCC even admits “isn’t clear which [diagnostic] tests are critical” to verify and assess confidence in the models. The 2007 Report Chapter 8, page 52 states the diagnostic tests to assess confidence in feedbacks simulated by different models have “yet to be developed.” In other words, the IPCC can’t begin to make any assessment whatsoever of confidence of the models at the heart of the IPCC “consensus” on anthropogenic global warming. If the IPCC is unable to verify and determine confidence in the models, no other climate modelling publication in climate science can rightfully make the claim that the models have been verified, or determine confidence limits on the results.

  2. Of 16 climate forcings identified by the IPCC, only 2 are stated by the IPCC to have a “high level” of understanding (CO2 and other greenhouse gases). Most of the other forcings have a “low level” of understanding, with a few stated to be “low to medium.” It is impossible to create a model with any validity without a high level of understanding of the effect of each of the input variables. The variables also interact in a chaotic manner, which by definition cannot be modeled.

  3. The 2 forcings claimed by the IPCC to have a “high level” of understanding (man-made CO2 and other greenhouse gases plus unproven positive feedbacks) are in fact not well understood, with
    [color=#BF4040]empirical satellite data showing the sensitivity to doubled CO2 with feedbacks is only about 0.7C (Lindzen & Choi 2009, 2011 and others), a factor of 4 less than assumed by IPCC climate models. [/color]

  4. The climate models falsely assume infrared “back-radiation” from greenhouse gases can heat the oceans (71% of the Earth surface area). In fact, IR wavelengths are only capable of penetrating the surface of the ocean a few microns (millionths of a meter), with all energy absorbed used up in the phase change of evaporation (which actually cools the sea surface), with no remaining energy to heat the ocean bulk. This fact alone completely invalidates the assumed radiative forcing from greenhouse gases incorporated in the models.

Long Wave Infrared from greenhouse gases has a wavelength of ~8-14 microns. Penetration depth into water shown on right scale.
6. In contrast to IR “back-radiation,” visible and especially UV radiation from the Sun is capable of penetrating the oceans to a depth of several meters to heat the oceans. Solar UV activity varies by up to 10% over solar cycles, unlike the total solar irradiance (TSI), which only varies by 0.1%. The IPCC climate models only consider changes in TSI and ignore the large changes in solar UV which heat the oceans. Solar UV also affects ozone levels, which in turn have large poorly understood effects on climate.

  1. Clouds are one of the most important yet most poorly understood variables, with the IPCC not even certain whether clouds have a net warming or cooling effect. The empirical data show cloud albedo declined over past few decades and accounts for at least 3 times as much warming as greenhouse gases. Whether the cloud changes are due to the cosmic ray theory of Svensmark et al or not, this remains an unexplained huge factor not incorporated in the models. As pointed out by Dr. Roy Spencer, a mere 1-2 % change in global cloud cover alone can account for either global warming or cooling. The changes in cloud cover secondarily related to solar activity noted by Svensmark et al have an amplitude of about 4%:

  2. Ocean oscillations, which can have a periodicity of up to 60 years (e.g. the Pacific Decadal Oscillation), and huge effects upon worldwide climate, are not incorporated in the climate models. Ocean oscillations alone could account for the warming of the latter 20th century that the IPCC chooses to ascribe to man-made CO2, while claiming there is no other explanation.

  3. As well stated by solar physicist Dr. Nicola Scaffeta,

…the traditional climate models also fail to properly reconstruct the correct amplitudes of the climate oscillations that have clear solar/astronomical signature…Given the above, there is little hope that the traditional climate models correctly interpret climate change and nothing concerning the real climate can be inferred from them because from a false premise everything can be concluded.

[color=#0040FF]
10. The latest climate models continue to greatly exaggerate sensitivity to CO2 by 67%.
[/color] Despite admitting this, the model authors were unwilling or unable to tweak the models to match observed temperatures, allowing the exaggerated effects of CO2 to remain in the world’s most commonly used climate model. How hard could it have been to correct the sensitivity to CO2, given that the supposedly sophisticated models can be replicated with a small handful of arbitrary and artificially linear forcing factors on a laptop PC?

Related: New Paper “Validation And Forecasting Accuracy In Models Of Climate Change” [/quote]

Morning.
What you got then?

What I got then? Oh… just waiting on a reply as to my original question.

  1. The IPCC states that given PAST CO2 concentration increases over the PAST 100 plus years that we have warmed 0.7 degrees Celsius.
  2. Given the formula that it is using, we should have seen 1.2 degrees Celsius increases.
  3. Despite the fact that this is wrong, it continues to use the same formula to predict scenarios along the lines provided by CF Images for what will happen given x level of CO2 increase.
  4. Experts have shown that the estimates are inflated by at least 67 percent.
  5. I am still waiting for a response as to why I have been presented with figures of scenarios for CO2 increases, all of which are irrelevant if the formula is wrong.
  6. I am wondering why we need to see these effects predicted out to 50 or 100 years when the IPCC is using PAST 100 years to calculate its new predictions. Thus, the increases are those moving ahead from the present day. They are not saying there have been no effects from global warming. They are, in fact, saying, we will CONTINUE to see x, y and z changes GIVEN the various scenarios postulated.
  7. All of this hypothesis is wrong if the formula is wrong. It is that basic.
  8. Naturally, one would have to wonder why some of our posters given their equally exaggerated claims of knowledge and understanding (sing along with me; you know the words… I had a unknown climate science professor in Melbourne…) that this questioning of a key formula and what it means for future effects of CO2 increases would be so hard to understand… but then… yeah… um… confucian er buddhist er taoist, because um… relationships are um… hierarchical… so that would indicate that … the er… um… indirect… why indirect? um… yes… no… but confucian… approach this from the er um… yeah… cuz… that’s how I see it…