Scott sommers article on "class currency" in taiwan

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
1

this blog deals with an issue i’ve always heard thrown around: locals think English teachers are losers and think transfers from foriegn comapnies are “normal foriegners” and therefore to be respected more. the latter has a kind of “social currency” and can get things done that those of us in the “culture industry”,ie teaching english cannot.
interesting article, one that i lack the words to express adequately.

scottsommers.blogs.com/taiwanweb … t-70427592

one local respondant offered the experience that locals thought of ETs as being rejects from their own country. if it is true that locals feel this way about us, how can we have true respect/relationships?

2

Damn…this thread got hit by the censors quick!

Good link Ran…I especially like the comments by Battlepanda & Maoman on the blog.

I should probably read Mr. Sommers more often.

3

Thank you for the interest in my post. I’d like to point out that the aim of this and other posts is to put an end to inane discussions of foreign English teachers as ‘losers’. Foreign teachers are victims of the reorganization of professional employment that struck the developed world during the early 1980’s. They have been drawn into a market that asks for commitment, but has no reward system built into it for responsible professional work.

I’d like to point out that the entry-level professionals I discussed are no less victims of this workplace reorganization nor are they better educated or more professional. Many of them are people who failed at English teaching and had to find other work. All of them are people who feel that living in Taiwan provides a better life than living in their home country.

Succeeding at English teaching requires a great deal of commitment to the occupation. It is not an easy career path to pursue, particularly given the lack of support mechanism for long-term foreign residents. I think it’s important to view to situation objectively and scientifically.

4

What a fascinating read, discussed and then moderated by Scott with his usual intelligence and equanimity.

In the best of all possible worlds, it wouldn’t matter what anyone does for a living. I suppose the question for the individual, particularly if he or she is an English teacher, is whether or not he/she is bothered by being lumped into a social class, or in with a group that enjoys a marginal reputation among many in Taiwan.

I fall somewhere between knowing that it doesn’t matter what strangers think of me and my profession, and feeling irritated by the ignorance and attendant small-mindedness that causes people to make assumptions about me based on their perception of one of the ways I earn my living.

5

dear scott(glad you’re here) and others in this open, fantastic discussion:

i totally agree that the " drug addict/loser/whatever" sticker is closed -minded. i do feel however that, at least at my time of arrival in '97, it was an attitude that was firmly in place. not among all, but it was present.
however i have experienced similar things in america. in houston, it seemed a kind of class structure existed which had little to do with how much one made. the entry requierments were simply that one were percieved to have a middle class work ethic/outlook: one should be seeking the standard items, house in the burbs, better car. yet these people who sought the things seemed to even have a disdain for those who had found better ways to obtain them (ie someone who might have made a fortune by owning several vending machines, etc) than working downtown in an office.
you talked about “class X”. i feel that when i go back to the states eventually, i will be a part of class X/underground(but legal) cash only economy. i actually take pride in that, because i think it shows ingenuity and independence.
don’t know where i’m going with this. just typing.

6

Ran, One of the things I’m trying to do is make a distinction between the way class is conceived here and in our home countries. If you think of class as that thing that allows access to the physical resources of society, you see that the problem of ‘being viewed with disdain’ is not necessarily the same thing. For example, the vending machine operators may have trouble getting respect from their friends, but they would live in big houses, send their kids of expensive private schools, and drive big cars like anyone else with the same income. When they call the police or when they need legal help, they have access to the same power. This is not the same for foreigners living in Taiwan.

The owner of a successful buxiban may have a huge income, drive a Volvo, and live in the best part of the city. He or she may have respect from those around them, but they are English teachers first and foremost. As soon as they step into a room - or an Internet blog - they are perceived as being culture workers who left a high income country and either better be transient or it’s clear that something needs to be explained. And I can say these perceptions are overly influenced by the kind of place where you teach English, ie. university or buxiban; English teachers are English teachers.

Does that make sense?

7

yes it does. so scott, what do you feel it takes for one to be a “mover and shaker” at least on a small level? would being a member of AM-CHAM help? attending functions in tien mu?

i believe local people can tell whether someone is an english teacher or a transfered worker from a foriegn country. i believe the latter will be respected more and be percieved as okay, whereas the ET might be percieved (by some) as " what are you doing here? taiwan people want to GO to the US and you’re LEAVING the US? are you some kind of ‘kung fu the miniseries’ reject/washout from mainstream suburbia?"

i think some of this ties in with the idea that it’s okay to be a banana, but it’s not okay to be an egg. it’s okay for TW men to like blondes, but for western men to like asian girls is a sick fetish. it’s okay for Tw people to learn western things, but for a westerner to learn asian things is a sure sign he’s a reject raised on too many Bruce Lee movies.

overall, some locals think that if you’re here, you ain’t the cream of the crop, unless of course you’re a transfer.
maybe early on, a lot of bad foriegners ingrained this stereotype. but now there are many reponsible foreign ETs in taiwan. hopefully these people are changing opinions here.

i’m thinking this discussion is beyong my level. i wish i knew more about sociology. it’s very interesting.

8

First of all, dress is one almost completely consistent sign of what a person does here. It’s often the second thing people notice (after the fact that you’re a foreigner, of course). Like it or not, people are judged by what they wear.

An expat in their early 30’s tends to dress a little classier than your average 30-something buxiban teacher. Even if it’s just to go to a bar. I am only being honest. You will not see someone who is here on a package wearing tevas or dirty flipflops with baggy shorts and a t-shirt, sporting some kind of ballcap, even when indoors (a particular pet peeve of mine). Especially on a work day.

That’s not to say there are no well-dressed English teachers out there or businessmen who dress like bums on the weekend or that dress indicates who a person is (except maybe someone who takes care in how they dress is someone who has more respect for himself), but if you see a guy in a nice polo, a pair of khakis, and a decent pair of shoes (or even sandals), you can almost guarantee he’s never touched a sticky ball.

Think about it. Would you rather get into a taxi driven by a guy in a wife beater, surf shorts, and flip flops or one where the driver is wearing a nice shirt, a pair of slacks and clean sneakers?

It amazes me how English teachers here make middle-class money and still dress like low-class bums.

Rule of thumb: if you dress like a bum, you shouldn’t be surprised to be treated like one.

9

Backing vocals here for ImaniOU.

10

[quote=“ImaniOU”]First of all, dress is one almost completely consistent sign of what a person does here. It’s often the second thing people notice (after the fact that you’re a foreigner, of course). Like it or not, people are judged by what they wear.

An expat in their early 30’s tends to dress a little classier than your average 30-something buxiban teacher. Even if it’s just to go to a bar. I am only being honest. You will not see someone who is here on a package wearing tevas or dirty flipflops with baggy shorts and a t-shirt, sporting some kind of ballcap, even when indoors (a particular pet peeve of mine). Especially on a work day.

That’s not to say there are no well-dressed English teachers out there or businessmen who dress like bums on the weekend or that dress indicates who a person is (except maybe someone who takes care in how they dress is someone who has more respect for himself), but if you see a guy in a nice polo, a pair of khakis, and a decent pair of shoes (or even sandals), you can almost guarantee he’s never touched a sticky ball.

Think about it. Would you rather get into a taxi driven by a guy in a wife beater, surf shorts, and flip flops or one where the driver is wearing a nice shirt, a pair of slacks and clean sneakers?

It amazes me how English teachers here make middle-class money and still dress like low-class bums.

Rule of thumb: if you dress like a bum, you shouldn’t be surprised to be treated like one.[/quote]

So, this rule should also be considered on the weekends? Days off? I’m with Tomas, altering btw should I really care about what others think of me and being pleased and concerned with my own point of views.

Imaniou,you’ve harped for years on the dress thing. It’s one of your judgement calls on what defines a decent teacher. This has no really validity when it comes what Scott is discussing/tackling in his blog.

I believe what Scott is partly trying to address here, is how the stigma of English Teaching profession places people in a ‘class’ that within the TW society defines as one that should not be afforted many rights and privilages as an expat business person would. In other words, there is not much consequence from mistreating or ignoring the needs of a English teacher, yet, there can be ramifications, political and economically if a expat or a person who has a position that has socially acceptable title were to be invovled.

11

I think dress has huge validity in discussions of class and social status and perceptions thereof in Taiwan. Taiwanese put a great deal of emphasis on dress. The emphasis may not be applied in exactly the same way it would be applied in the US, but it is applied. You have to recall that if you’re talking about Taiwanese perceptions, Taiwanese cultural rules are what apply.

12

Not really. There are plenty of well heeled teachers in Taiwan, yet do they have guanixi like an upper-level expat? And guanxi is far more important than how much LV you have and how well creased your pants are.

Edit: Mind you, one would also have to take into account personal looks, weight, and other physcial notions if these sort of things have any impact on what ‘class’ someone would be placed in.

You could be a well dressed and groomed teacher, but that will not grant you the right to credit in TW. It will not aways guarentee supportive service from the FAP or other government agencies. Also, it will not always grant you status in your community and/or open doors that will allow you to move upward.

13

None of which changes the original point that the way you dress here is going to have a significant impact on the way people assess you. Like it or not.

14

yeah, but as I was remarking to another f.commer the other day. As a 193cm bloke here I have very limited choices as to what I can wear. Hip hop teen or Golf Dad. Thats it

15

Try wearing Lowe Alpine. You can find it in extra large sizes.

16

Not true all the time. I often dressed well in TW, especially when having to do any offical business, and often received poor treatment or was just plain ignored. I guess on occation it may have had to do with my being black or having short hair or not skinny enough. :idunno: :S.

Main fact is even if one(ex:English teachers) were to dress well, it will not guarentee them access to many of the benefits that stem from being middle class i.e. access to credit, memberships to associations, decision making positions in their choosen field, communities etc.

17

[quote=“ImaniOU”]First of all, dress is one almost completely consistent sign of what a person does here. It’s often the second thing people notice (after the fact that you’re a foreigner, of course). Like it or not, people are judged by what they wear.

An expat in their early 30’s tends to dress a little classier than your average 30-something buxiban teacher. Even if it’s just to go to a bar. I am only being honest. You will not see someone who is here on a package wearing tevas or dirty flipflops with baggy shorts and a t-shirt, sporting some kind of ballcap, even when indoors (a particular pet peeve of mine). Especially on a work day. [/quote]

I don’t teach, but I like to dress crappy here, just to screw with people’s minds. :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

I do notice I am treated with a lot more respect and more “yes sirs” and the bank and stuff when I am wearing a suit.

18

:roflmao: That’s a good one. Why do people here dress like crap if they care so much about fashion? I don’t wear wifebeaters and flip-flops and ratty shorts, but if I did, I’d just be doing it to fit in with the natives.

19

do company transfers really get better treatment as far as cops and government go? i’m thinking they only get respected more by shops and Sogo.

20

Ran, your question about mobility is great and shows that you don’t need an academic background to be asking the right question. Something I once said on my blog was that sociology should be common sense. If it’s too hard for an educated person to understand, then it’s probably nonsense.

The question of mobility for language teachers is one I think of a lot. But you might want to try and conceptualize it the same way you would conceptualize mobility for Chinese restaurant owners. Joining AM-CHAM or Rotary might be OK, but I doubt you’d be taken with the same seriousness as the CEO of Merrill Lynch-Taiwan. I really think that to be taken seriously, culture workers here have to demonstrate they are good enough to build links with the world outside Taiwan. I have foreign friends in Taiwan who hold the opposite opinion; that to build status here, you have to compete with locals on their terms. I suppose this sounds a little vague, but I’m still trying to figure out this idea as well.

I agree with ImaniOU that dress is an indicator of class. But I suspect that you have it backward. There’s a lot in between the drug abusing English teacher and the CEO of an American MNC in Taiwan. There are loads of white-collar foreign workers whose income is less than many English teachers. My guess is that on the weekends, it’s impossible to distinguish them from most Taiwanese or foreigners living here because they buy all their clothes here. In fact, I was at a party last night attended primarily by professional workers at newspapers and government organizations. Aside from their age, I doubt anyone would have noticed the difference between them and a similar gathering of English teachers.

The kind of people you are talking about dress differently probably because they make more money than most buxiban teachers and have to invest in clothing as a sign of their position. There would be no reason for a long-term buxiban teacher with no pension, no job security, and no legal protection to invest in anything they don’t have to invest in. Unless they liked to dress well, it would almost be a waste of money. I feel that if workers are treated like bums and given all the options for their future that bums have, then they have no incentive to look (or act) differently.

One of the things that strikes me every time I go back to Canada is the complete disorganization of individual lives. If it were not for the structural support of the country in terms of infrastructure, welfare, legal protection, and other things, I suspect that most Canadians lives would be reduced to chaos. It’s no surprise to me that you take these same Canadians out of this vast and comprehensive support network placing them in a situation that defines them as temporary, foreign, and deviant, it’s no wonder that some fall into a world of anti-social behaviour. Why wouldn’t this happen? In fact, how couldn’t it happen? The real issue is what can and should be done about this in the Taiwan context.