Seriously confused on classical Chinese

Classical Chinese is very difficult, for anyone wishing to studying it and/or master it, I wish them well.

P.S - Anyone know of any good online Classical Chinese dictionaries? I don’t mind at all if they are Chinese-Chinese.

Why Zheng people? Why not simply a Zheng man and personally I think it’s ok to say x asked instead of x said and asked. is the Zheng man using his wife’s pants and not his wife for pants?

anyways, here’s my guess. forewarned, i dont have my dictionary on me. better wait for someone like DB.

鄭人使其妻為袴其妻問曰今袴何如夫曰象吾故袴妻因毀新令如故袴

A Zheng man [once] used his wife’s pants.

His wife asked “what about your current pants?”

The husband said “[yours] are like my old ones.”

Therefore, the wife altered his new ones to make them like his old ones.

鄭人使其妻為袴. 其妻問曰. 今袴何如. 夫曰象吾故袴. 妻因毀新. 令如故袴

A man of Zheng had his wife make him pants. His wife asked: How do you want your pants now? The husband said: Like my old pants. The wife accordingly ruined a new pair of pants making them like old pants.

I’m confident that this is an artificial passage written for students as an exercise possibly by a non-native speaker. Among other things, the passage wants you to understand the causative use of shǐ (to have/cause someone to do something).

The greatest skill you can learn out of classical is proper parsing. Once learned, whole new worlds open up.

[quote=“Feiren”]鄭人使其妻為袴. 其妻問曰. 今袴何如. 夫曰象吾故袴. 妻因毀新. 令如故袴

A man of Zheng had his wife make him pants. His wife asked: How do you want your pants now? The husband said: Like my old pants. The wife accordingly ruined a new pair of pants making them like old pants.

I’m confident that this is an artificial passage written for students as an exercise possibly by a non-native speaker. Among other things, the passage wants you to understand the causative use of shǐ (to have/cause someone to do something).[/quote]

鐘鼓之聲: 怒而擊之則武, 憂而擊之則悲, 喜而擊之則音, …
The sounds of a bell or drum: when struck with anger it is powerful, when struck with sorrow it is mournful, when stuck with joy it is sonorous, …

And I don’t know the rest.

Dear all,

[quote]Rabidpie wrote: The second of which:

鄭人使其妻為袴其妻問曰今袴何如夫曰象吾故袴妻因毀新令如故袴[/quote]

It seems it’s from “Han Feizi” by Han Feizi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Feizi_(book)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Feizi

http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=2301&if=en

It’s number 38. Has punctuation and everything. :slight_smile:

The guy’s name is Puzi?!?!? :slight_smile:

http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=2003_Q4/uvaGenText/tei/z000000041.xml
http://xtf.lib.virginia.edu/xtf/view?docId=2003_Q4/uvaGenText/tei/z000000042.xml

Couldn’t find it in the translated complete works but didn’t have time to give it a thorough going over. :slight_smile:

Still don’t get it even with the aid of cartoon. :slight_smile:

Try Zdic.net if you’re unwilling to get a pirated copy off the Internet. :slight_smile:

http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE8ZdicA2ZdicB4.htm

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

I think I found the original quote, with punctuation added:

鐘鼓之聲,怒而擊之則武,憂而擊之則悲,喜而擊之則[color=#FF0000]樂。其意變,其聲[/color]亦變。意誠,感之達於金石,而況於人乎?

The sounds of a bell or drum: when struck with anger it is powerful; when struck with sorrow it is mournful; when stuck with joy it is happy. When the mood changes, the sound also changes. … … ?

Dear all,

[quote=“Chris”]I think I found the original quote, with punctuation added:

鐘鼓之聲,怒而擊之則武,憂而擊之則悲,喜而擊之則[color=#FF0000]樂。其意變,其聲[/color]亦變。意誠,感之達於金石,而況於人乎?[/quote]

I found a version at Dsturgeon.net that’s different from the two already posted by Rabidpie & Chris.

http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=22140&if=en

It’s item #28.

It seems that it’s from “Shuo Yuan” by Liu Xiang (no, not the Chinese Olympic gold medalist hurdler. :slight_smile: ). And it’s Confucius talking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiang_(scholar)

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E8%AF%B4%E8%8B%91 More of a stub than a proper entry. :slight_smile:

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E8%AF%B4%E8%8B%91 Wow! Not much of an entry at the “largest” online Chinese encyclopedia either.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/636683.htm A better entry. :slight_smile:

Sorry, couldn’t find a cartoon. :slight_smile:

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

[quote=“Kobo-Daishi”]

[quote=“Chris”]I think I found the original quote, with punctuation added:

鐘鼓之聲,怒而擊之則武,憂而擊之則悲,喜而擊之則[color=#FF0000]樂。其意變,其聲[/color]亦變。意誠,感之達於金石,而況於人乎?[/quote]
I found a version at Dsturgeon.net that’s different from the two already posted by Rabidpie & Chris.

http://Chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=22140&if=en

It’s item #28.[/quote]
But on the same website in the dictionary section, the quote differs again and matches Chris’s version:
chinese.dsturgeon.net/dictionary … b&id=41627

But to finish off Chris’s translation

意誠,感之達於金石,而況於人乎?
If sincere, such feelings reaches even metal and stone, let alone people.

Dear all,

[quote=“sjcma”]But on the same website in the dictionary section, the quote differs again and matches Chris’s version:
Chinese.dsturgeon.net/dictionary … b&id=41627

But to finish off Chris’s translation

意誠,感之達於金石,而況於人乎?
If sincere, such feelings reaches even metal and stone, let alone people.[/quote]

That’s because Chris’ passage is from the Yin Wen Zi (尹文子) while mine is from the Shuo Yuan (說苑).

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%B0%B9%E6%96%87%E5%AD%90 Wikipedia entry for Yin Wen Zi (尹文子).

http://baike.baidu.com/view/433645.htm Baidu Baike entry for Yin Wen Zi (尹文子).

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E5%B0%B9%E6%96%87%E5%AD%90 Hudong Baike entry for Yin Wen Zi (尹文子), the philosopher.

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E5%B0%B9%E6%96%87 Hudong Baike entry for Yin Wen (尹文).

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E3%80%8A%E5%B0%B9%E6%96%87%E5%AD%90%E3%80%8B Hudong Baike entry for Yin Wen Zi (尹文子), the book.

At dsturgeon.net, the Yin Wen Zi is under Miscellaneous Schools while the Shuo Yuan is under Confucianism.

http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=41547&if=gb Chris’ entry is #17.

Here are the two passages in parallel.

http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=22168&if=en&show=parallel

Oh, I forgot. The Dsturgeon.net site also has a classical Chinese dictionary project.

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

Chirs, Kobo-Daishi, and sjicma, I defer to all of you.

You are all pretty amazing. I’m envious. Well, I don’t know what you guys did to get your Classical Chinese so sharp, but I need to keep working hard on it!

[quote=“Kobo-Daishi”][quote=“sjcma”]But on the same website in the dictionary section, the quote differs again and matches Chris’s version:
Chinese.dsturgeon.net/dictionary … b&id=41627[/quote]

That’s because Chris’ passage is from the Yin Wen Zi (尹文子) while mine is from the Shuo Yuan (說苑).

Here are the two passages in parallel.

http://Chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=22168&if=en&show=parallel[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification Kobo-Daishi.

《尹文子·佚文》: 鐘鼓之聲,怒而擊之則武,憂而擊之則悲,喜而擊之則樂。其意變,其聲亦變。意誠,感之達於金石,而況於人乎?
《說苑·脩文》: 鐘鼓之聲,怒而擊之則武,憂而擊之則悲,喜而擊之則樂;其志變,其聲亦變。其志誠,通乎金石,而況人乎?

The two versions mean the same thing, just worded slightly differently. I wonder who copied whom. :ponder:

Dear sjcma,

Since Yin Wen Zi did his work during the Warring States period before imperial China and Liu Xiang did his during China’s second imperial dynasty of Han, it would follow that Liu Xiang’s Shuo Yuan copied from the Yin Wen Zi.

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E5%B0%B9%E6%96%87

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E3%80%8A%E5%B0%B9%E6%96%87%E5%AD%90%E3%80%8B

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiang_(scholar)

[quote=“The Wikipedia entry for ‘Liu Xiang (scholar)’”]He was born in Xuzhou and related to Liu Bang, the founder of the Han dynasty. His son, Liu Xin, developed the “Triple Concordance” astronomical system.

Liu compiled the first catalogue of the imperial library and was the first editor of the Shan Hai Jing (finished by his son))[2]. He was a prodigious collector of old stories, which he compiled into the Zhan Guo Ce, the Xinxu (新序, “New Prefaces”), the Shuoyuan (說苑, “Garden of Stories”), the Lienü Zhuan, and probably the Liexian Zhuan.[/quote]

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

Here are two that I’m doing now:

宋人有耕者田中有株兔走觸株折頸而死因釋其耒而守株冀復得兔兔不可得得而身為宋國笑

楚人有涉江者其劍自舟中墜於水遽 契其舟曰是吾劍之所從墜舟止從其所契者入水求之舟已行矣而劍不行求劍若此不亦惑乎

宋人有耕者,田中有株,兔走觸株,折頸而死,因釋其耒而守株,冀復得兔,兔不可[color=#BF0000]得[/color]得,而身為宋國笑。

I think the character in red is probably wrong. Anyhow, this story is the basis for the idiom 守株待兔.

Translation:

Amongst the people of Song there was a farmer. His field has a tree stump. The rabbit ran into the trunk, broke its neck and died. Because of this, the farmer puts down his tools to wait by the tree stump, hoping to get another rabbit. But more rabbits never came, and he became the laughing stock of Song.

楚人有涉江者,其劍自舟中墜於水,遽契其舟,曰: “是吾劍之所從墜”。舟止,從其所契者入水求之。舟已行矣,而劍不行,求劍若此,不亦惑乎。

This story is the basis for the idiom 刻舟求劍.

Amongst the people of Chu there was a person crossing the river. His sword dropped from the boat into the water. He hurriedly carved the boat, saying, “My sword fell from here.” The boat stopped. From where the cut was made he went into the water looking for the sword. The boat had already moved, but the sword does not move; to look for the sword in this fashion, isn’t it foolish?

[quote=“sjcma”]
宋人有耕者,田中有株,兔走觸株,折頸而死,因釋其耒而守株,冀復得兔,兔不可[color=#BF0000]得[/color]得,而身為宋國笑。

I think the character in red is probably wrong.[/quote]

Should that be 兔不可[color=#0000FF]复[/color]得?

Oh, that’s not a Japanese name? :rainbow:

Oh, that’s not a Japanese name? :rainbow:[/quote] :laughing:

Lots of rice and rice patties in Japanese names. And islands. And love. 飯島愛…

He also had a knife?

[quote=“sjcma”]

楚人有涉江者,其劍自舟中墜於水,遽契其舟,曰: “是吾劍之所從墜”。舟止,從其所契者入水求之。舟已行矣,而劍不行,求劍若此,不亦惑乎。

This story is the basis for the idiom 刻舟求劍.

Amongst the people of Chu there was a person crossing the river. His sword dropped from the boat into the water. He hurriedly carved the boat, saying, “My sword fell from here.” The boat stopped. From where the cut was made he went into the water looking for the sword. The boat had already moved, but the sword does not move; to look for the sword in this fashion, isn’t it foolish?[/quote]