Shifting religious demographics in the U. S. of A

There’s an interesting survey(a very large one, at that) just out, on shifts in the numbers of adults affiliated with each religion. Here are some of the major findings:

Almost half of American adults have left the religion they were brought up in.

Catholics have lost more individuals than any other, in such quantity that now one in ten Americans is an ex-Catholic, but the Hispanic influx has helped keep the Catholic % stable.

Mainstream churches in general (Catholic and Protestant) are in decline, with members moving to non-denominational churches or becoming unaffiliated with any church.

The group which grew the largest was those unaffiliated with any church. However, those actually identifying as atheist or agnostic were a mere 4%.

The group with the highest % departing was Jehovah’s Witnesses: Fully 63% of those so raised have left that church.

While I have high hopes for my country to grow beyond the limited view of Christianity in a world that clearly has more to offer than the last 2000 years of Euro-centric ideology, the fact of the matter is that it is difficult to believe this survey.

Keep in mind, Bush is now leaving after 8 years. That means that he was elected twice. Both times the religiously faithful believed that he was the best man and he won. I believe that only in the larger metropolitan centers of the country will you find people having open minds along the lines of Rodney King. “Can’t we all just get along?”

While many so-called Christians will tolerate others and their beliefs, the fact of the matter is that ultimately you are completely wrong and evil and will suffer for an eternity until Jesus deems you unworthy to exist. Then you will be smote. Once you die it is too late to accept Jesus as your saviour…so all who have already died, and those who will die without accepting him into their heart are just screwed.

Ultimately, I believe, we will have more religious wars. The war in Iraq is a religious war. Bush said that God told him to go to war. Unfortunately the years to come will see more and more bloodshed in the name of God. The funny thing is that all of those religious wars will all be in the name of the same God. The jews, christians and muslims share the same god. Each one believes that god is on their side and that they are doing god’s will by creating war and killing.

The only way out of it is to have more and more people create new religions that teach people how to accept rather than separate. Will it happen?..

I have to disagree with you here. The only way out of it, really, is to abolish religion altogether.

I have to disagree with you here. The only way out of it, really, is to abolish religion altogether.[/quote]
Like China.

Why? The results don’t show a big overall decline in religiosity – it’s about people switching from one church, often to another church. It’s not about open-mindedness in America or anything like that, either. Have another, more careful look at the survey results I linked to. I think it’s interesting that there are such big differences, for instance, in retention rates from one church like Jehovah’s Witnesses, to another, like non-denominational churches, and thought it might be a good starting point for a considered and respectful discussion of the underlying reasons. Are some churches just doing a better marketing job, for instance, or are their beliefs and practices just more in tune with the needs and beliefs of the public at large? Is the Catholic Church’s poor retention rate due to a mismatch between its conservativism and a more liberal public, or is it the aftermath of too many scandals? Why are so many describing their beliefs as not amounting to much, and yet so few willing to identify as agnostics or atheists? Is this due to a public stigma against atheism, or something else?

I think we can have a discussion on the issue without going off on anti-Jesus or pro-Jesus rants here. Let’s talk about the shifting demographics, and the reasons, please.

I would have thought that the number agnostics and atheists would be increasing. I see more people like Bill Mahr who would seem to make it more accepted.

I think that there are a lot of people who doubt the legitimacy of organized faith belief systems, and have their doubts about the existence of a god. But, to say that you are atheist (or even agnostic) is making a leap that definitely risks stigmatization. In the US (as in may countries), saying that you are an atheist is basically akin to saying “I am a devil-worshipper.” That’s why I am always wary of using that term around certain people (i.e. most of my family, who are primarily Catholic and would be devastated to hear me tell the truth. Therefore, I just don’t discuss religion at all with them).

What I have seen in the town I grew up in (predominantly Roman Catholic) is that some from younger generations do not attend church services, but still may identify themselves as belonging to a particular faith. However, a majority seem to feel that they do not need to belong to a particular organized religion to be religious…they feel that they can worship in their own way. Maybe they have become disgruntled by the church, maybe their education played a factor, maybe globalization plays a part…there are probably a zillion factors and the story is different for everyone. But culture change allows us more freedom to decide what we believe in and how we feel about attending church. For example, when my Mom was a kid in the 50’s, she was told that if she didn’t attend church services 3 times a week, even if she was sick, she would be damned to hell. The brainwashing power of the church was stronger years ago…many people seem to know better now. I would attribute that to media and better access to information, amongst other reasons.

But as to being an atheist, again I think it’s too big of a jump for most people to say that they feel so strongly in the non-existence of a god / maker. It comes down to the old debate where it cannot be proved that there is or isn’t a god…so you have to feel very strongly, beyond a doubt, that there is no god to call yourself an atheist. That’s why it’s not as common I think.

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I’m an atheist.

There, I said it. I feel so much better now.

Why? The results don’t show a big overall decline in religiosity – it’s about people switching from one church, often to another church. It’s not about open-mindedness in America or anything like that, either. Have another, more careful look at the survey results I linked to. I think it’s interesting that there are such big differences, for instance, in retention rates from one church like Jehovah’s Witnesses, to another, like non-denominational churches, and thought it might be a good starting point for a considered and respectful discussion of the underlying reasons. Are some churches just doing a better marketing job, for instance, or are their beliefs and practices just more in tune with the needs and beliefs of the public at large? Is the Catholic Church’s poor retention rate due to a mismatch between its conservativism and a more liberal public, or is it the aftermath of too many scandals? Why are so many describing their beliefs as not amounting to much, and yet so few willing to identify as agnostics or atheists? Is this due to a public stigma against atheism, or something else?
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Some thoughts. From what I know of the Jehovah’s, i would expect a poor retention rate. They’re a bit out there.

In my opinion, and speaking from a background of 12 years of Catholic education–after which i packed it in lol, i guess i am one of those 10%–the Catholic church has a lot of arcane, not easily understood doctrines that may tend to turn people away. Conversely, the trend towards openness since the 1960’s may be hurting. From my viewpoint, if people start looking at the underpinnings of the religion with an open mind, they start to realize that it’s not entirely believable. Also, I would tend to imagine Catholics are more congregated in urban centers than other religions, and urbanites are more likely to turn away from organized religion in general.

Many people may be almost there, but the fear of eternal punishment instilled through years of childhood might make them subconsciously unwilling to go all the way and say, i’m an atheist. Also, it’s practically as confusing to say “i’m an atheist” as to profess a belief in god. it doesn’t do anything to answer any questions that’s for sure. many people are probably just feeling something like, “organized religion doesn’t make any sense, i really don’t believe in the kind of god they profess, but beyond that i don’t really know, so to heck with it” many have not gone as far as that, but simply choose to believe in their own kind of god, without the need for organized religion.

dragonbones wrote:
Mainstream churches in general (Catholic and Protestant) are in decline, with members moving to non-denominational churches or becoming unaffiliated with any church.

I wasn’t intentionally christian bashing. What I meant was what Tempo stated:

the Catholic church has a lot of arcane, not easily understood doctrines that may tend to turn people away.

That religion is 2000-5000 years old. The modern people of today don’t need to follow the doctrines of people living that long ago who didn’t know things like germs and refrigeration. Much of the old testament is filled with rules to keep them clean. In addition the catholic doctrines are carbon copies of the jewish doctrines, some with different names and slightly different times throughout the year because of the changes between the lunar and solar calendars.

We have tv now. We have exposure to the entire world. To those people the world was the lower half of Europe, the top ten percent of Africa and as far east as pakistan. They also believed that heaven was the stars, the world was flat and created only 6000 years ago.

Let’s just say we have a little more information now…

Give those Hispanics some time and they’ll break away from the church as well. They will probably always call themselves catholics but only at easter and christmas.

Spirituality is necessary but we are not obligated to follow what we were brainwashed to believe growing up. We only know what our parents teach us until we learn different. But if everyone around you believes the same thing, those beliefs become more concrete. Again with mass media it breaks up those limited viewpoints.

I was about to say: “ultimately what matters is if you are a decent person.” Then I thought of the last two american presidents. Neither one of them was a decent person and they were not only forgiven but accepted.

So I guess we’re all just screwed… :idunno:

Devil-worshipper!

In Australia, 70% of the country officially claims to be Christian (all versions). Yet church attendance is about 20% and a lot of that 20% are Christmas/Easter only. I’m not sure what the official athiest/agnostic figure is, but I do know that many athiest/agnostics will claim to be Christian when they do the census because that’s what you’re supposed to be. The real figure for athiests is probably a lot higher than the official figures, and the real figure for Christians a lot lower.

When my sister and I were at school my Mum would declare our family to be “officially” Christian, depsite the fact that we didn’t believe in God, didn’t go to church and didn’t have a Bible in the house. It was expected that everyone said Christian, so that’s what she said. I’m not sure about my sister, by both me (in my mid-30s) and my mother (60s) have never been to church except for weddings and funerals, and have never believed in God.

I’d guess in America, where religion is stronger generally than Australia, this effect might be even more pronounced. I’m guessing that a lot of athiests/agnostics would be saying they were Christian just to fit-in, particularly people in highly religious neighborhoods or those with school-aged children.

cfimages, I think you’re right.

I don’t live in the States, but when I go home, I am careful about what I say (especially around the older generation). I have only really mentioned the fact that I am an atheist to my sisters, who really already really guessed as much. But like I said before, most people do associate atheism with an evilness; if you are godless, you must be evil, in other words. Although many people don’t go to church, read the bible, pray, or whatever, they still seem to have this “What if?” question in their heads that scares them, like “If I say I don’t believe in god and there really is a god and a heaven and a hell, then I am doomed! So, I had better play it safe, just in case.” Haven’t we all heard that one before?

[color=green]Mod note: Discussion of the US primaries belongs in International Politics. Those posts have been moved.
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I think that people who identify themselves as atheist/agnostic are people who have thought about religious issues and take them seriously.

There are a large and growing number of people who simply don’t have any interest in, or contact with, religion. They may have vague ideas about “purpose” or “spiritual feelings”, but for them religious belief is simply a lifestyle choice- “some people watch football, some people go to church, I’m into working out and MySpace.”

I assume you mean as opposed to those who just identify themselves as Christian despite not really believing. And I think that’s right.

Atheist doesn’t mean “lack of belief in God” to most people. It means belief that there is no God.

Most “casual Christians” who don’t really have any belief say “Christian” because they don’t actually make the effort to believe there isn’t a God and the Christian tradition is closer to what they accept. There are atheists who still follow Christianity-- all accept the worship part. I think it stands to reason that there are many more who think teachings of Christianity are part of their core values, though without any real belief in any sort of divinity, who do not identify with the values associated with atheism.

perhaps to most people, but probably not to most atheists.

As I understand it, the poll counted Protestants and Catholics (but not Baptists and Methodists) as separate religions. Interesting.

The big problem with Catholicism is that it’s not as gung-ho and energetic as the charismatic and evangelical Protestants who recruit from among them. The Catholic Church is like Hillary, and the “sects” are like Obama! In time, I expect that the newcomers will lose their luster, much as Christian Science has. (Mark Twain extrapolated, perhaps unwisely, that Christian Science would become the major U.S. religion by the end of the 20th century.)

The JW’s are gung-ho enough, but the social costs of belonging are just too high to appeal to rational people. It costs nothing to be Catholic, with the possible exception of your son’s rectal virginity, and you might even benefit. Judaism is more expensive, but on the whole a good buy, considering the networking possibilities. The JW’s ask that you avoid going to university, accept direction from church elders, and make other sacrifices of this nature. This could only appeal to very low-achieving types. (At least the Mormons are in favor of university education.)

A lot of people seem to approach religion as a form of entertainment. I wonder if this doesn’t account for the mega-church’s appeal (though as entertainment it still seems pretty pathetic). Mainly older people will feel allegience to the traditional Protestant denominations, though younger people may attend their churches out of convenience, and not distinguish between (say) Methodist and Lutheran. And of course there is a growing number of people who are privately religious, or seeking, but do not translate that into a clear institutional identity. The “New Age” movement came and went, but the behavior stayed with us.

Structural demographic change will have a huge impact. I thought Judaism would have fared much worse, for example (though they stand to benefit from increasing immigration out of Israel). For the sake of comparison, the Masons (not a religion!) are in deep trouble–hardly any young men want to join, and the only sign of hope on the horizon is the fact that Dan Brown’s next book will apparently be about them.

Episcopalians appear to be headed for a split, based on members’ fundamentally different perceptions of what their religion ought to be.

It’s never easy to know what to count as a sign of religious identity. In Britain, for example, the number of self-described Protestants and Catholics is about equal–but about 20 times as many Catholics as Protestants go to church on an ordinary Sunday. How important is self-description vs. church attendance? And does this fairly apply across religious borders? Is a Jew who denies God and enters the synagogue only with great reluctance, less religious than the Baptist who goes three times a week? Maybe the Jew is more religious–because he can’t not be a Jew even if he tries, whereas the Baptist has to continually reaffirm his religious commitment (thereby underscoring the possibility of leaving).

I wonder whether “fundamentalist” or conservative forms of religiosity are in the ascendent. For example Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists are all (needless to say, independently of one another) moving away from various social compromises of previous generations, towards more “traditional” norms. Reform Jews are bringing back yarmulkas, Buddhist groups (whether white or immigrant) seem intent on recreating traditional Asian practices, and the Muslims–well, you know about them. On this basis, I expect to see Orthodox Christianity grow considerably. (Conservative Episcopalians ought to be flirting with them instead of the Catholics.)

Baha’is are poised between contradictory pressures. In theory, they ought to benefit from multicultural and multiracial trends, as well as the public’s apparent desire for a more authoritarian leadership. However, they’ve been around for awhile now, and their members are just now realizing that their last several decades of “growth” are in fact an illusion. I would say that their future is looking more and more like Christian Science.

The Hare Krishna have done surprisingly well for themselves. Their now-decentralized structure has helped them avoid too much fallout from scandals similar to those which have plagued the Catholic Church, and they’ve managed to attract enough ethnic Hindus to appear respectable. (Many more of those on the way.) They still have huge turnover, though, and the sex-only-three-times-a-month rule can’t help with member retention.

So, how did the Jedi do this time around? Is the Force still with them, or have they stopped putting medichlorians in the water?

[quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]
Atheist doesn’t mean “lack of belief in God” to most people. It means belief that there is no God.[/quote]
perhaps to most people, but probably not to most atheists.[/quote]
I agree, but that’s kind of my point.

Atheists might call those without any real belief in God implicit atheists. Defining atheism as not being a theist. Personally, I think that “if you’re not against us, then you’re with us” argument is something of a fallacy, but then what I believe isn’t really the point.

In this case, it isn’t what atheists believe, either.

It’s what the people who are identifying their own beliefs believe. As you said, most atheists would call such fence-sitting a kind of atheism. But since they don’t see it that way, they aren’t atheists. At least, not as far as self-identification goes.

[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”][quote=“Tempo Gain”][quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]
Atheist doesn’t mean “lack of belief in God” to most people. It means belief that there is no God.[/quote]
perhaps to most people, but probably not to most atheists.[/quote]
I agree, but that’s kind of my point.

Atheists might call those without any real belief in God implicit atheists. Defining atheism as not being a theist. Personally, I think that “if you’re not against us, then you’re with us” argument is something of a fallacy, but then what I believe isn’t really the point.

In this case, it isn’t what atheists believe, either.

It’s what the people who are identifying their own beliefs believe. As you said, most atheists would call such fence-sitting a kind of atheism. But since they don’t see it that way, they aren’t atheists. At least, not as far as self-identification goes.[/quote]

The fence-sitting that you described (neither claiming faith nor disbelief in god) would be defined as agnosticism.

The belief that god does not exist is atheism.