Should Aborigines be made to shop at Carrefour?

Discussion Open Forum
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[quote=“Confuzius”]I suggest they go to Carefour like the rest of us.

“Maintaining” their way of life is helping no one, including them. If anything, it hurts them by keeping them segregated and depriving them of opportunities.

Its 2011, almost 2012 (maybe the end of time!) get with the program. Trying to maintain an ancient way of life in the modern world is like trying to walk around London speaking Shakespearean English and expecting people to bend over backwards for your “maintaining” whatever old crap you are so attached to.[/quote]

This comment was originally posted by Confuzius on a different thread where I was surprised to find not one person sought to challenge his assertions and instead they were met with a chorus of approval and clapping emoticons. I am relatively new to Forumosa and am curious to see if this attitude is just confined to that particular thread or is it indeed a generally accepted view amongst the foreign community on Forumosa.
Basically Confuzius is saying that aborigines should be made to abandon their traditional hunting, gathering and subsistence farming lifestyles and ‘get with the program’ and by ‘program’ he means his own cultural program of massive corporate controlled food production which he claims is the way of today and the future.
Whether they should or not is one thing, but apart from that, I don’t agree with the premise that this kind of food production is necessarily the way things are heading anyway. On the contrary, there is a strong, ‘modern’ movement towards sustainable living and organic food production. In the censored thread, Charlie Phillips said:

[quote]I haven’t shopped at Carrefour for more than a year and feel no lack of opportunities.
Love eating free seafood, veggies and barking deer with my inlaws. If you raise and kill your own pig, you don’t have to work so hard for dickhead bosses.[/quote]
Absolutely. And the funny thing is that these fresh organic foods are actually very trendy these days and would cost a small fortune to buy in one of Confuzius’s modern world restaurants (where it still wouldn’t be as good) – and you definitely wouldn’t be able to get it at Carrefour.
At my neighbour’s place I have been similarly treated to wild pig, goat, shrimp, quail, crab, flying fish, and snail, and whatever is in season. When I sent a dozen eggs to another aboriginal friend, a few days later I was presented with 4 lobster! Nice trade.
To me, the impressive thing is that they don’t need to go to Carrefour. So my point is, if the aborigines want to continue their traditional lifestyles, good on ‘em, let them do it. If they want to participate in the ‘modern’ Taiwanese world, then that’s great, too. The reality is that many do both. Why the hell do you need to force everyone to live the way you do?
In the meantime, Charlie and I and our aboriginal friends will keep tucking into our fresh organic lobster, bbq quail and venison, and Confuzius, you keep going with your sad, battery-farmed, hormone-pumped Carrefour muck.

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I find it odd to suggest that anyone should be made to abandon a lifestyle that is not actively causing others harm. Aborigines (and the other peoples of Taiwan) have a choice of how to live; if they want to adopt a “modern lifestyle” then they are perfectly at liberty to do so. The idea of compelling someone to do so though is barbaric.

3

You have me with you thus far, DD. Let’s see if Confuzius can come up with anything more convincing to sway the debate his way.

I am a vegetarian, and would not want to support the killing of animals for food in any way. But the process by which your Aboriginal friends put meat and fish on their table does seem less objectionable, in almost every aspect, than the process by which the food industry provides for supermarket shoppers. Unfortunately, it would not be possible for everyone to satisfy their craving for animal protein in a like manner, so as long as there is mass demand for eating animal flesh, it is hard to see how your friends’ and neighbours’ practices could be extended to a wider swathe of the population.

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His comment makes less sense out of context. I don’t think he was literally suggesting that Aborigines should be forcibly relocated into tenement blocks and made to join the rest of the rank-and-file (at least I hope he wasn’t). As I recall, it was in response to your suggestion that if Aborigines are deprived of the right to use gin traps, they will all starve to death. How they managed before the invention of gin traps is anybody’s guess.

I agree with him insofar as a society which fails to adapt and evolve is doomed. If you’ve seen Seediq Bale, you’ll know what I mean (although you probably won’t agree).

As for your comment about international agribusiness and supermarkets: :thumbsup:. The so-called modern world has a lot of problems and I suspect the Aboriginal tribes have got a lot of things right. I saw a program on their architecture the other day - some of which is better (from an appropriate-design point of view) than the shite we see the construction companies putting up. The original discussion was purely about the legality of cruel trapping methods, and Confuzius’s comment relates to that, not to Aboriginal culture in general, and I think he said so himself in that thread. I hope I haven’t misunderstood his intent.

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dulan drift: Reading that quote (which may be out of context), it doesn’t appear that he’s advocating forcing anyone to do anything. He’s merely suggesting they get with the programme. If it is out of context, then you should have provided the full quote.

As for leading a traditional lifestyle, I couldn’t care how people live their lives so long as two conditions are met:

  1. I don’t have to fund it through welfare, affirmative action or anything else;

  2. They still obey all the same laws as everyone else. No exceptions should be made. That includes hunting endangered species and hunting with methods that would be considered cruel/illegal if anyone else used them.

No having the best of both worlds.

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As long as we are teaching them how to shop, apply for jobs, wear shoes, and not cut people’s heads off, maybe we should convert them to some modern religion as well. Like, oh, Catholicism or Presbyterianism. Think it’ll fly?

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[quote=“Omniloquacious”]You have me with you thus far, DD. Let’s see if Confuzius can come up with anything more convincing to sway the debate his way.

I am a vegetarian, and would not want to support the killing of animals for food in any way. But the process by which your Aboriginal friends put meat and fish on their table does seem less objectionable, in almost every aspect, than the process by which the food industry provides for supermarket shoppers. Unfortunately, it would not be possible for everyone to satisfy their craving for animal protein in a like manner, so as long as there is mass demand for eating animal flesh, it is hard to see how your friends’ and neighbours’ practices could be extended to a wider swathe of the population.[/quote]

I am not advocating that we all head off hunting animals like a pack of wild cowboys - that would have a seriously negative impact on the environment, but i do feel that aborigines should be allowed to continue the practice of hunting according to a permit with designated areas and a seasonal system including prohibiting hunting during breeding seasons.
Of course, a large part of that hunting is just fishing - and i admit, quite a cruel way to catch an animal i suppose, but should it be illegal? Then there’s the hunting of wild animals as well, but in the end, it’s not their main way of surviving actually - probably more important culturally. The mainstay is still their livestock larder - the hunting is a supplement to that. My Bu Nong tribe neighbours keep goats, chickens, ducks, geese, pigs as well as grow a large array of vegetables. None of which they have to take three layers of plastic wrapping off (and throw in the trash) in order to eat them. Like yourself, there’s a tide of people who don’t trust the mass food industry, and this aboriginal model offers a pretty good ‘how to’ guide for anyone wanting to live in a more-or-less food self-subsistent manner. And people are doing it. I’m doing it. It’s great.

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If you want the full quote, you can find it here:http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=100711&start=40
And can check the context too. Probably easier that way than trying to explain it.

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[quote=“dulan drift”][quote=“Omniloquacious”]You have me with you thus far, DD. Let’s see if Confuzius can come up with anything more convincing to sway the debate his way.

I am a vegetarian, and would not want to support the killing of animals for food in any way. But the process by which your Aboriginal friends put meat and fish on their table does seem less objectionable, in almost every aspect, than the process by which the food industry provides for supermarket shoppers. Unfortunately, it would not be possible for everyone to satisfy their craving for animal protein in a like manner, so as long as there is mass demand for eating animal flesh, it is hard to see how your friends’ and neighbours’ practices could be extended to a wider swathe of the population.[/quote]

I am not advocating that we all head off hunting animals like a pack of wild cowboys - that would have a seriously negative impact on the environment, but I do feel that aborigines should be allowed to continue the practice of hunting according to a permit with designated areas and a seasonal system including prohibiting hunting during breeding seasons.
Of course, a large part of that hunting is just fishing - and i admit, quite a cruel way to catch an animal i suppose, but should it be illegal? Then there’s the hunting of wild animals as well, but in the end, it’s not their main way of surviving actually - probably more important culturally. The mainstay is still their livestock larder - the hunting is a supplement to that. My Bu Nong tribe neighbours keep goats, chickens, ducks, geese, pigs as well as grow a large array of vegetables. None of which they have to take three layers of plastic wrapping off (and throw in the trash) in order to eat them. Like yourself, there’s a tide of people who don’t trust the mass food industry, and this aboriginal model offers a pretty good ‘how to’ model for anyone wanting to live in a more-or-less food self-subsistent manner. And people are doing it. I’m doing it. It’s great.[/quote]

In the past I have argued many times that aboriginals should be allowed to hunt legally and as part of that right they would accept strict sustainable quotas and punitive fines for breaking those quotas.

Confuzius has a typical no-nothing attitude toward a very complex problem: dealing with aboriginal peoples. So far no country has done a great job. It’s mostly been forced assimilation, absolute destruction or some kind of resigned neglect.

I mean the last point literally. Sadly, many aboriginal people’s do not fare very well in the modern world even when given their own land and resources. My brother is a senior policy adviser for Indian Affairs in Canada and has described dozens of the most disfunctional villages around the province (place where literally the majority of the people have low IQs because of fetal alcohol syndrome) that still get their billions in land transfer payments, rents, and so on.

I spent the summer in Alaska where native groups were given a massive settlement package in the 80s to tune of hundreds of millions of dollars and a massive chunk of the land. Hasn’t prevented natives from having the highest suicide rate in the state, or some of the highest rates of drug and alcohol abuse.

Even in Taiwan you’d be lying to say that the average aboriginal village is a good place to live, or raise children. Alcoholism is rife, as is domestic abuse, poverty, low education standards, lack of social mobility or opportunities. What’s a government to do?

So while preserving native culture is in some sense a noble venture, it is in others a willful turning away from the very great problems we cause by allowing a traditional culture based on subsistence to try and co-exist with a modern society.

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I agree with most of your points, MM. I think a lot of the problems in aboriginal villages stem from the treatment the government has historically given aborigine communities.
Having said that, aborigine children seem to be the happiest in Taiwan. Some young aborigines I know who have integrated into the wider community are the most well rounded, hard working individuals I know - they really have a lot about them and often put their Han counterparts to shame, it has to be said.

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[color=#408000]
Moderator’s note: Please address the message and not the messenger. This is a forum for discussion of political views, not for making personal attacks. [/color]

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Just discovered this thread was no longer in temp (it seems to be moving, first living in TW, then temp…where will it end up next?)

[quote=“dulan drift”]
Basically Confuzius is saying that aborigines should be made to abandon their traditional hunting, gathering and subsistence farming lifestyles and ‘get with the program’ and by ‘program’ he means his own cultural program of massive corporate controlled food production which he claims is the way of today and the future. [/quote]

Thanks for determining what I am “basically saying”, which is absolute hogwash. Perhaps a better approach would have been to ASK me to clarify my statements before throwing a minor fit (calling me racist, starting a new thread in the hopes of eliciting responses against me, interpreting my words instead of asking me…)

Anyway, I am sure you are an awesome person and I hit a spot you care deeply about, so I will clarify. (or perhaps you’re not awesome at all, I got no clue, but I’ll giveya the benefit of the doubt).

First: let anyone do whatever the heck they want as long as they do not encroach on anyone else. (Ron Swanson for president! If Ron Swanson could reconcile his libertarian stance on things with universal health care, I would crown him king of the universe). So I am not saying we deprive them of lands and force them to work 40 hours a week. Let them do what they wanna do…(as long as it does not encroach on anyone else).

Two: Finly said what is underlying a lot of my opinion (maybe he has read some of my other posts, or just feels the same):

[quote=“finley”]His comment makes less sense out of context. I don’t think he was literally suggesting that Aborigines should be forcibly relocated into tenement blocks and made to join the rest of the rank-and-file (at least I hope he wasn’t). As I recall, it was in response to your suggestion that if Aborigines are deprived of the right to use gin traps, they will all starve to death. How they managed before the invention of gin traps is anybody’s guess.
[color=#BF0000]
I agree with him insofar as a society which fails to adapt and evolve is doomed.[/color] [/quote]

Adapt or die, living in the past helps no one. (NOT that adapt or I will kill you…or I will force you…thats just the way things is). Short of a global disaster, their culture will die if they do not get with the program…that is my firm belief. Not saying I WANT their culture to die…quite the opposite.

Additionally, [quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]dulan drift: Reading that quote (which may be out of context), it doesn’t appear that he’s advocating forcing anyone to do anything. He’s merely suggesting they get with the programme. If it is out of context, then you should have provided the full quote.

As for leading a traditional lifestyle, I couldn’t care how people live their lives so long as two conditions are met:

  1. I don’t have to fund it through welfare, affirmative action or anything else;

[color=#800000]2) They still obey all the same laws as everyone else. No exceptions should be made. That includes hunting endangered species and hunting with methods that would be considered cruel/illegal if anyone else used them.

No having the best of both worlds.[/color][/quote]

THATS what I was REALLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY getting at.

I’m sorry, but because your ancestors hunted and gathered does NOT give you the right to litter the landscape with traps that are cruel, maim animals, cut their legs off, trap people’s pet, trap PEOPLE!!! Wooohooo, my ancestors hunted and gathered too, its just that they rode the wave of the agricultural revolution as well as the industrial revolution. Their cultures survived and changed…the aboriginals’ culture can as well, unless they wish to live in the past.

There was a WONDERFUL quote from the original context (not by me, however) that said something like “tradition is not a blanket catch phrase you can use to justify being an asshole”.

Setting iron leg traps is wrong, PERIOD. If you think that’s culturally insensitive, well, too f’in bad.

If it is either set traps OR shop at Carefour (if those are the ONLY two options, which I doubt) then yes, you must shop at carefour.

I actually think many indigenous cultures have a lot to teach modern society about sustainability, respect for the planet, how it is actually sacred. But there needs to be a meeting point, in the middle, not just getting our food like they did in the stone (iron?) age or having massive, unsustainable consumption. Unfortunately, people like either the black or the white…the middle takes too much thought.

PS
I’ve never bought anything from Carefour except a cellphone…how ironic is that? :doh:

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[quote=“Mucha Man”]
In the past I have argued many times that aboriginals should be allowed to hunt legally and as part of that right they would accept strict sustainable quotas and punitive fines for breaking those quotas.

Confuzius has a typical no-nothing attitude toward a very complex problem: dealing with aboriginal peoples. So far no country has done a great job. It’s mostly been forced assimilation, absolute destruction or some kind of resigned neglect. [/quote]

Um no, I don’t, well, not sure actually because I am not familiar with the term “no-nothing”, just googled it and all that came up was “know-nothing”, which I am guessing that is what you mean. Not an expert of Taiwanese aboriginal history, but my last post explains my position.

Lived next to an “Indian reservation” in Tempe, AZ, as well as surrounded by reservations in Northern AZ, I know what you are talking about here.

[quote=“Mucha Man”]
So while preserving native culture is in some sense a noble venture, it is in others a willful turning away from the very great problems we cause by allowing a traditional culture based on subsistence to try and co-exist with a modern society.[/quote]

This is in total agreement with what I was saying, you said it more eloquently though. :beatnik:

And I find nothing wrong with preserving culture…but if the members of that culture wish to improve their lives they need to adapt to the modern world, or they will forever find themselves under its boot. (again, not FORCING them…thats just the way things is)

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I don’t think we need to bring ethnicity into this. Some people prefer more traditional lifestyles and some don’t. That’s fine. Although, I’m sort of entertained by people that think hippies living on a farm, growing organic food, driving it to market in an old polluting VW van is somehow good for the environment. :laughing:

[quote]
The study of Life Cycle Assessments (LCAs) for the UK, sponsored by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, should concern anyone who buys organic. It shows that milk and dairy production is a major source of greenhouse gas emissions (GHGs). A litre of organic milk requires 80 per cent more land than conventional milk to produce, has 20 per cent greater global warming potential, releases 60 per cent more nutrients to water sources, and contributes 70 per cent more to acid rain.

Also, organically reared cows burp twice as much methane as conventionally reared cattle – and methane is 20 times more powerful a greenhouse gas than CO2. Meat and poultry are the largest agricultural contributors to GHG emissions. LCA assessment counts the energy used to manufacture pesticide for growing cattle feed, but still shows that a kilo of organic beef releases 12 per cent more GHGs, causes twice as much nutrient pollution and more acid rain. [/quote]

Likewise, and at least in the North American perspective, I think sometimes certain disadvantaged groups use events from hundreds of years ago or their economic dependency on the state, to create a culture of “victimization.” I don’t think this is healthy. Some groups have been in diasporas for hundreds or thousands of years, faced adversity for most of those years, and their culture has only been strengthened. Why doesn’t this happen with some? I think they must look at themselves rather than blame. :hand:

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I dont believe in singling out a particular race for special treatment good or bad. IF the aborigine of TW have full rights as any other citizen of the ROC and of course they should. They should not have any other rights due to their race. They are just citizens of the ROC like any other citizens. Subject to same laws and able to partake of the same benefits. Equality in its trueist form. No special rights for aborigine !!

NO need for them to keep up their tribal customs if those customs circumvent the current laws of the land. TOO BAD ! They can be amended. IF wild pigs are not to be hunted, then they can no longer hunt them. They can buy a regular pig and use that. NO special rights for any citizen .

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[quote=“Confuzius”] [quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]
As for leading a traditional lifestyle, I couldn’t care how people live their lives so long as two conditions are met:

  1. …

[color=#800000]2) They still obey all the same laws as everyone else. No exceptions should be made. That includes hunting endangered species and hunting with methods that would be considered cruel/illegal if anyone else used them.

No having the best of both worlds.[/color][/quote]

THATS what I was REALLLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY getting at.

I’m sorry, but because your ancestors hunted and gathered does NOT give you the right to litter the landscape with traps that are cruel, maim animals, cut their legs off, trap people’s pet, trap PEOPLE!!! …

I actually think many indigenous cultures have a lot to teach modern society about sustainability, respect for the planet, how it is actually sacred. But there needs to be a meeting point, in the middle, not just getting our food like they did in the stone (iron?) age or having massive, unsustainable consumption.

[/quote]
I don’t see anything to disagree with in that. It’s pretty much what MM said in his first words in this thread, and I hardly imagine that DD would disagree with it either.

But are those steel traps really used widely by Aborigines? I’ve spent thousands of hours wandering about in the wilds around Wulai, much of it off trail, and while I’ve often encountered Aborigines out hunting and fishing, I’ve seldom seen them carrying or laying those nasty devices. Surely most of them still practice much better and more effective ways of hunting, don’t they? Most times, I saw them with those ancient home-made rifles that they favour. If there were many of those traps scattered around in their hunting grounds, it must be my great good fortune that I never stepped in one. When I have seen them, or seen poor dogs running around with one on their leg, it’s always been in places close to Wulai township, where they’re as likely to have been set by resident or visiting non-Aborigines.

And Chewy, those factory farmers sure are good at pulling statistics out of their noses to justify their nasty ways of making money. Even if those statistics were completely unfabricated/undistorted, they wouldn’t go even part way toward evening out the harmful effects of their farming practices on environmental and public health, not to mention the hideous cruelties and other objectionable aspects of their methods.

On a side note, I gave MM one of those thumbs-up thingies for his post, but it’s mysteriously disappeared. It leaves me baffled as to how that bit of the bells and whistles works. Do the approvals get confiscated if one of the moderators disagrees with it?

And does this thread really deserve to be consigned to the Temporary Forum? I’d have thought it’s a very worthy subject of debate, and it already contains more interesting content than a very high proportion of other threads.

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Ok, i am glad we agree on that at least.

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Harmful to the environment? I think many studies have shown that organic farming poses some substantial problems, especially with regard to increased GHG.

Now I have no problem with increased GHG, but I do note the hypocrisy amongst people that are against GHG increases/global warming but completely back organic farming. Whether it’s requiring more land to produce organic milk, or the methane released by farting organic-fed cows :smiley: , or the small-time hippy producer taking his goods to market in old VW gas guzzler, organic farming brings up as many problems as it often professes to solve.

And what is so bad about using chemicals, having large scale operations/transportation supply chains, or using genetic modification when it comes to food? It has saved millions of lives and led to much greater yields in Africa. There are safeguard mechanisms in most food policies/inspection regimes of various countries to ensure an adequate amount of consumer protection.

Of course, beret-wearing, IPhone loving, suburban-living, pseudo-intellectual, Generation X and Y urban hipsters think such food is unfashionable. :laughing: Therefore, it must be. :unamused: Most of the world’s 7 billion or so people can’t afford to pay 12 dollars for a bottle of organic apple juice or double for a bottle of organic milk. They’re thankful that fertilizers have helped increase yields and given their families more food. People living in bubbles forget that.

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[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]As for leading a traditional lifestyle, I couldn’t care how people live their lives so long as two conditions are met:

  1. I don’t have to fund it through welfare, affirmative action or anything else.[/quote]

Do you also agree that the aborigines shouldn’t have to give you (meaning the greater non-aboriginal society) anything?

20

Ok, I am glad we agree on that at least.[/quote]

So we agree it is hogwash that i am basically saying:[quote=“dulan drift”] aborigines should be made to abandon their traditional hunting, gathering and subsistence farming lifestyles and ‘get with the program’ and by ‘program’ he means his own cultural program of massive corporate controlled food production which he claims is the way of today and the future.[/quote]

Well I am glad that you agree with me on how to interpret my own words :s