Should cats be kept outdoors in Taiwan?

Life Pets & Domestic Animals
21

Sticking to the topic:

You mean will we take the risk of the cat going on a restaurant tour of the neighbourhood again, in case someone who lives 20 miles away will take her and put her in a cage? Considering she desperately wants to be an outdoors cat, and it’s a safe neighbourhood, and she is microchipped, and she can have a collar that clearly shows she belongs to someone, I would support her owner if that’s what she decided. The reality I am facing is a cat highly stressed from being cooped up; what you are describing is … possibility. Imprisoning an outdoor cat because of other people’s fears is more like craziness, in my opinion, particularly when other indoor-outdoor cats are thriving happily in the neighbourhood.

If you had kids, would you let them outside, when someone could kidnap them, or attack them, or mug them, or worse, or they could be hit by a car? These things happen all the time (you would call that a reality), but if I had to choose between keeping my kid indoors and ‘risking’ the outside world, I would have to go with allowing them to be … kids. They would go outside, of course, and learn how to thrive in the world, not hide from it.

My cat stayed inside when the outside environment wasn’t appropriate for her. She was allowed to finally enjoy the outside when the immediate environment was safer. I had to move, though, to do that, because my cat was clearly suffering from being kept inside, even though she had only known the outside for the three weeks between her birth and being picked up by me.

I think you can agree with me now: it depends on the circumstances, right?

22

Although our cat Ginger started out on the streets, when we carry her to the vet in our arms, she appears absolutely TERRIFIED at being outdoors – huge pupils, flattened ears, trembling – it’s a pathetic sight. I don’t think she’d be happy or safe back out there.

Same goes for our cat Maya. She’d be slinking around in misery looking for a place to hide.

As for the spunky new kitten Chico, I imagine he’d be perfectly happy charging recklessly across the largest intersection in Taipei chasing a wind-blown leaf, which is why he definitely doesn’t belong out there.

Unless you live a safe distance from traffic, I can’t imagine letting a cat out. But I guess it probably depends on the cat, too. I’ve simply never owned an outside cat.

23

[quote=“Stray Dog”]Sticking to the topic:

You mean will we take the risk of the cat going on a restaurant tour of the neighbourhood again, in case someone who lives 20 miles away will take her and put her in a cage? Considering she desperately wants to be an outdoors cat, and it’s a safe neighbourhood, and she is microchipped, and she can have a collar that clearly shows she belongs to someone, I would support her owner if that’s what she decided. [/quote]Then I’m guessing that the poll is not that skewed after all, now, is it? I don’t see why you couldn’t vote because letting your cat go out for 5+ days at the time is pretty much keeping it outdoor, as opposed to allowing her outdoor, no? So much for the semantic talk about the thread title and the skewed poll… :s[quote]The reality I am facing is a cat highly stressed from being cooped up; what you are describing is … possibility.[/quote]That is correct. Very good possibilities at that. People pick up friendly cats all the time on the street. As for putting a collar on the cat to identify her while letting her live outside for days on end just adds to the risk factor. But that again, is your personal choice to make. See a thread you posted about that here:“Cat collars safety”

[quote=“Stray Dog”]Cat Collar Warning

I tried putting one of those easy-release collars on my cat, but it kept coming off. She is now microchipped, but does anyone know of any better collars for cats?[/quote]

[quote]If you had kids, would you let them outside, when someone could kidnap them, or attack them, or mug them, or worse, or they could be hit by a car? These things happen all the time (you would call that a reality), but if I had to choose between keeping my kid indoors and ‘risking’ the outside world, I would have to go with allowing them to be … kids. They would go outside, of course, and learn how to thrive in the world, not hide from it.[/quote]I’m not one to tell you that kids/pets analogies do not make sense. You know very well that both you and I often compare caring for a pet with caring for a young child. Young being the key word, here. Would you really let a young child play in traffic, while unsupervised? I don’t think so. All day and all night long? Five days on end? I don’t think so. You’re analogy is correct in that letting both a kid or a cat outside is indeed comparable. If unsupervised, the risk is too high.

[quote]I think you can agree with me now: it depends on the circumstances, right?[/quote]Regardless of the circumstances, I think you can agree with me that the the risks involved for a cat to go outside is always greater than if the cat is kept indoors. Because that is all I’ve been saying. :wink: As for the cat disposition ie: some cats do feel cooped up inside, and some don’t,(If that’s what you mean by different circumstances) I’ve already agreed, and I’ve discussed it in depth. These cats are a minority. Most cats, as noted by many cat owners in this thread, do just fine indoor. Even former strays. I’m surprised that you have not one, but two cats(between you and your GF) who depend on going outside for their sanity as I have yet to encounter a single one in Taiwan.

24

I’m not surprised. I have three. My next-door neighbour has one. In fact, most of the cats in my neighbourhood are housecats that spend significant amounts of time outside. Very few strays around, either. Probably the housecats see them off sharpish.
Sure a lot of cats do OK inside and won’t know what they’re missing if they’ve never been out – two of mine were like that when they were confined to an apartment, but in my boundless experience, they do MUCH better when they can get out and about, feel the wind of the prairie on their faces, the grass between their toes, etc.

25

I’m not surprised. I have three. My next-door neighbour has one. In fact, most of the cats in my neighbourhood are housecats that spend significant amounts of time outside. Very few strays around, either. Probably the housecats see them off sharpish.
Sure a lot of cats do OK inside and won’t know what they’re missing if they’ve never been out – two of mine were like that when they were confined to an apartment, but in my boundless experience, they do MUCH better when they can get out and about, feel the wind of the prairie on their faces, the grass between their toes, etc.[/quote]

How about the pitch between their toes? I suppose I could let my little guy up on the rooftop as it’s technically mine to use.

26

Our cats chase each other until they tumble recklessly into walls or off table tops. All the time. I wouldn’t want to see any of them tumble recklessly off a rooftop wall and plummet to its death.

27

I’m not surprised. I have three. My next-door neighbour has one. In fact, most of the cats in my neighbourhood are housecats that spend significant amounts of time outside. Very few strays around, either. Sure a lot of cats do OK inside and won’t know what they’re missing if they’ve never been out – two of mine were like that when they were confined to an apartment, but in my boundless experience, they do MUCH better when they can get out and about, feel the wind of the prairie on their faces, the grass between their toes, etc.[/quote]I think you just made my point, Sandman. As you mention, two of your cats were indoor cats, and they were not suffering. Try to keep them inside now, and they will be very frustrated. It’s your own personal choice, and I respect it, but I disagree that it’s the right thing to do. I disagree to advocate this practice for people who live in urban areas of any country, especially Taiwan, for reasons mentioned earlier.

Besides, your cats are not a very good example of how some cats have a dependency to going outside for their sanity since you have taught them to be dependent of that yourself. You can’t use the claim that your cats are miserable indoor if you habituated the cats to go outside yourself. What you quoted above isn’t about cats who do OK(either because they do go outside or either because they are content inside). It’s about cats that are miserable if they do not go outside, and how I have not seen one yet. In addition to that, here’s what I wrote earlier:[quote=“bobepine”]I honestly think that the big majority of cats who become dependent of going outside to be happy are the ones whose owners have let them get habituated to go in and out at will. Strays generally have it too hard not to grow fond of a safe and plentiful home.
[/quote]

I agree that cats do much better in open places with countless more stimuli. You are absolutely right about that. It’s common sense. But tell me, if Muffin doesn’t turn up, do you think she’ll still be better off outside/on the street a year from now? Heck, 3 months from now? And if Sean has to trap the cat to get it back for example, do you think the cat will not stray again? Street cats are usually ridden with fleas accompanied with an array of interesting parasites that really pours on their ability to enjoy life. Sean always says that he would do what the animal would choose if the animal could actually make decisions. I wonder what Muffin would prefer… Being inside, or on the street ridden with fleas with a baggage full of parasites.

Sure your neighborhood sounds quite outdoor cat friendly, but that’s a far cry from convincing me that this is not a very rare setting in Taiwan urban areas. My own experience tells me otherwise, and I’m very surprised to hear you talk as if your neighborhood is a reflection of what life is for an outdoor cat in Taiwan.

28

You should have asked me that question before answering it for me, bobepine. :laughing: Her owner has decided to have a large supply of them on hand. She likes that they come off, as this means they won’t choke young Muffin when she’s out gallivanting.

Man, I wish I had as much time on my hands as you do, to go searching through posts almost a year old to try and make a point. You really should let me know how you do it.

You do know that an 18-month-old cat is not the same as an 18-month-old child, right? An 18-month-old cat is the equivalent of a 26-year-old human. Methinks my kids will be venturing outside unsupervised once they turn 25. :wink:

I wish that was all you you’ve been saying, because then this thread would have been over a long time ago :wink:

I have witnesses; I can provide statements! :laughing:

Yes, that’s right (to all). :slight_smile: You have a very contentious way of agreeing with people (or them agreeing with you, if you prefer). :laughing:

I was going to respond to what you wrote in your response to sandman, but it seems that you’re talking about street cats in that instance, not cats like mine and my girlfriend’s who are indoor-outdoor cats. I’ve never seen a flea on my cat - ever. Might be the diet though. :sunglasses:

29

[color=indigo]so, if my cats spend a significant amount of time on my terrace, does that make them outdoor cats? Now I’m confused with the definition of indoor/outdoor cats. I used to live in row house and the cats loved to hang out on the roof too (and the neighbors’ too). But they are indoor cats to me because they really can’t interact with other street creatures. Also, my cats get weekly baths and a lot of special priveleges that your average outdoor cat doesn’t get.

So what is the next question?[/color]

30

[quote=“Stray Dog”][quote=“bobepine”]I’m not one to tell you that kids/pets analogies do not make sense. You know very well that both you and I often compare caring for a pet with caring for a young child. Young being the key word, here. Would you really let a young child play in traffic, while unsupervised? I don’t think so. All day and all night long? Five days on end? I don’t think so. You’re analogy is correct in that letting both a kid or a cat outside is indeed comparable. If unsupervised, the risk is too high.[/quote]You do know that an 18-month-old cat is not the same as an 18-month-old child, right? [color=red]An 18-month-old cat is the equivalent of a 26-year-old human. [/color][color=red]Methinks my kids will be venturing outside unsupervised once they turn 25. [/color]:wink: [/quote]The following was your analogy about cats/kids:[quote=“Stray Dog”]If you had kids, would you let them outside, when someone could kidnap them, or attack them, or mug them, or worse, or they could be hit by a car? These things happen all the time (you would call that a reality), but if I had to choose between keeping my kid indoors and ‘risking’ the outside world, I would have to go with allowing them to be … kids. They would go outside, of course, and learn how to thrive in the world, not hide from it. [/quote]So let me get this straight… When you say the word “kid” above, you are actually thinking about a 26 years old adult? :laughing: You really think that an 18 month old cat needs the same level of supervision as a 26 year old adult? :noway:

You know very well that analogies regarding kids and animals have nothing to do with the animal’s age. You know very well that it’s all about level of dependency. A young child is comparably dependent of adults the same as domestic animals are throughout their lives with disregard to their age. But you know that already…

[quote]I was going to respond to what you wrote in your response to sandman, but it seems that you’re talking about street cats in that instance, not cats like mine and my girlfriend’s who are indoor-outdoor cats. I’ve never seen a flea on my cat - ever. Might be the diet though. :sunglasses:[/quote]That’s correct. I’m talking about street cats. Lets’ have a look at what I wrote in response to Sandman:[quote=“bobepine”]But tell me,
if
Muffin doesn’t turn up, do you think she’ll still be better off outside/on the street a year from now? Heck, 3 months from now? And if Sean has to trap the cat to get it back for example, do you think the cat will not stray again? Street cats are usually ridden with fleas accompanied with an array of interesting parasites that really pours on their ability to enjoy life. Sean always says that he would do what the animal would choose if the animal could actually make decisions. I wonder what Muffin would prefer… Being inside, or on the street ridden with fleas with a baggage full of parasites. [/quote]

Notice the word "
if
?" This means that I’m not talking about muffin before it strayed, but after it strayed, and I talk about what would happen
if
the cat in question is not found or does not come back. Get it right, your cat is not an indoor-outdoor cat as of now(until further notice that the cat was found)it’s just one more bloody stray. And BTW, the definition of stray doesn’t have a time frame to it: a domestic animal found wandering at large or without an owner. I think it’s fair to say that if you post a thread asking for help locating your cat, you don’t have an indoor-outdoor cat, what you have is a stray cat, AKA a street cat.

And if the cat turns up, and I hope it will, it doesn’t change the fact that the cat did stray. It just becomes a re-united stray. Again, good luck!

31

[quote=“bobepine”]Notice the word "
if
?" This means that I’m not talking about muffin before it strayed, but after it strayed, and I talk about what would happen
if
the cat in question is not found or does not come back. Get it right, your cat is not an indoor-outdoor cat as of now(until further notice that the cat was found)it’s just one more bloody stray.[/quote]

I think that’s a bit of a stretch. I think the cat is temporarily at large. A stray has no home to return to… Muffin has a home. She may become a stray, in time. But, she isn’t yet a stray. That’s what I think.

I think the definition certainly implies a time frame. There are MANY animals here that live with families, especially those who live in first floor/ground level places, that are left out on the street all day to snuffle around their lanes until evening when they go inside. There are several of these types of dogs in my lane, and their owners leave their frond doors open for the dogs to “check in” from time to time. These dogs could not properly be referred to as “strays” simply because they are wandering about the lane without their owners.

Let’s keep in mind that we do not live in a perfect world, either for us or for dogs and cats. There are ideals we can strive for, but have little chance of meeting. We need, in our reality, to make compromises often. Some animals… many animals need to wander outdoors. Is it a risk? Of course. But, we all take certain risks every day. We measure these risks, and hope our compromises work out well. Sometimes they do… sometimes they don’t.

32

[quote=“Tigerman”]
There are MANY animals here that live with families, especially those who live in first floor/ground level places, that are left out on the street all day to snuffle around their lanes until evening when they go inside. There are several of these types of dogs in my lane, and their owners leave their frond doors open for the dogs to “check in” from time to time. These dogs could not properly be referred to as “strays” simply because they are wandering about the lane without their owners.[/quote]I agree, but when you find a picture of these animals in your mailbox with a note from the owner saying: Please help me find my dog/cat, they have strayed, and they are strays.

[quote]Let’s keep in mind that we do not live in a perfect world, either for us or for dogs and cats. There are ideals we can strive for, but have little chance of meeting. We need, in our reality, to make compromises often. Some animals… many animals need to wander outdoors. Is it a risk? Of course. But, we all take certain risks every day. We measure these risks, and hope our compromises work out well. Sometimes they do… sometimes they don’t.[/quote]Precisely. And the more risks you take, the more chances the calculated risks will not work out so well. Since most cats do well indoor, I would not encourage letting cats wander outside.

We adopted out a cat to Navillus, and the cat got out by mistake.(mistakes happen!) The poor thing lasted one day. It was found dead the next day after a dog had mistaken it for a chew toy. :s From 5 to 16 stray dogs per sq. Km.(on average) in Taiwan, and some of the busiest traffic on the planet. Cats do not belong outdoor, here, IMOHO.

33

Before coming to Taiwan, I’ve had cats all my life. Probably 5 all up counting when I was a kid.

They all used to enjoy going outside. Personally, I think it’s great to see a cat out in long grass stalking a bird or another cat. It’s completely natural.
Our cats would always be waiting at the door at a certain time, or would come when called (sometimes from miles away at high speed)

I wouldn’t have it any other way, and one of the reasons I don’t have a cat here in Taiwan is we already have a dog in our 5th floor apartment. Going down the elevator and walking a dog is fine, but walking a cat seems a bit weird and pointless to me as the whole reason to let a cat outside is to give it some independence.

34

The term free-roaming is one I find best to describe dogs and cats who have access to or permanently reside in the outdoors. Muffin is a free-roaming cat now, was, and will be.

35

I’ve always had indoor/outdoor cats. Never really thought they were in danger- live on a dead-end street with a stretch of woods and fields behind me. Then several years ago my neighbor had a visitor with a pitbull that got out and chased my 11 yr. old cat up a tree. We got the dog away but the cat fell @ 15 feet and injured her leg when she tried to climb out of the tree. She is now an indoor cat and every few months she goes to the door and looks up at me with a longing in her eyes so I carry her outside and she walks about for 15 minutes with me supervising and then we go back in for the next several months. I was lucky because the same visiting dog got a stray cat behind my garage and shook it so hard it broke it’s back and took off chunks of fur with skin attached (cat died after @ 10 awful minutes). I have another cat that still goes outside but only because he drove us nuts when we attempted to turn him into a housecat after years of freedom. We limit the time outside and he’s never out when we’re not home or at night but its still a risk we take and I hope I won’t regret it someday. After all, who wants to experience those sleepless night where you worry about what has happened to your missing cat- poisoned, tortured by a creep, etc. Its those times that will make you wish you hadn’t let them out. So, generally I feel most cats should be kept indoors with plenty of toys, climbing platforms, etc. but I do know that this can be difficult to achieve with a few cats.

36

[quote=“Stray Dog”]The term free-roaming is one I find best to describe dogs and cats who have access to or permanently reside in the outdoors. Muffin is a free-roaming cat now, was, and will be.[/quote]So did the cat come back? Sounds like she has! :slight_smile: My question is if she is/was/will be a free roaming cat, why did you post a thread, etc, to ask people to help you find her? Why on earth would you set live traps to catch your own free-roaming cat? :laughing: Did she not stray? Why would you go through all that if your cat didn’t stray?

So much for getting all PC and sarcastic with me when I post a polite warning about the risks of letting cats outdoor in a thread about a missing cat, if at the end of the day, you say that the cat isn’t/wasn’t really missing/straying, but more so a free roaming cat who may, or may not reside outdoors permanently. :s

[quote=“Stray Dog”]The poll asks if cats should be kept outside. I only think that’s a good idea for CNR cats.[/quote]My next question is what exactly is the difference between a “free roaming cat” who “permanently resides outdoors,” and a cat that is kept outside? It’s the same thing, no? You said that you think it’s only a good idea for CNR cats. Is muffin a CNR case now? Sigh…

37

One of my cats pulled the iron off the ironing board last night. My GOD! He could have been INJURED! That’s it for me. Indoors is simply too dangerous for a cat.

38

SandPussDaddy wrote[quote]One of my cats pulled the iron off the ironing board last night. My GOD! He could have been INJURED! That’s it for me. Indoors is simply too dangerous for a cat.[/quote]

What? You don’t keep your cats in a padded room? You probably don’t even make your kitties wear a helmet and kevlar body armour. :smiling_imp:

39

Bobepine, sometimes I really wonder about the battles you fight here.

At the end of the day, there are 1000s of well meaning mainstream people who love animals and do the best they can to take care of them. I find it a bit odd that you are so vocal about whether to keep a cat inside or not :noway: Surely, you are not serious?
Obviously it’s circumstantial, but the reality is that millions of cats enjoy very healthy lives having the ability to roam, and their owners/guardians are happy in the belief that the cat is enjoying a fuller life because of it.

While I admire the work you are doing with animals, I sincerely believe you need to have a BIG think about being so legalistic about some of your opinions regarding animal ‘welfare’. If you go down that road, the list is endless (eg. what to feed your animals, training etc etc) and what I fear the most is you will be pretty successful in distancing yourself from joe public cat owner who DOES provide a loving, caring and healthy environment for his/her cat and ultimately you will lose mainstream support for your greater cause of finding homes for rescued animals.

In all sincerity, you might want to consider a different approach for the sake of the animals - unless your long term solution is to rescue, adopt, feed, treat and fund all this stuff on your own.
I have seen a different approach that works and continues to work, and one that I have a great deal of respect and support for.

40

Thanks for the feedback, Truant, I’m takin it on board.

Yes, I’m dead serious. I honestly think that having a cat outdoors in the city, here, in Taiwan is too dangerous, and not worth the risk.

Stray dog started off with being PC and sarcastic and followed with petty semantic argumentations about the thread title and the poll, followed with semantic arguments comparing an 18 month old cat with a 26 years old person, and down to saying that his cat is a free roaming cat. He mentioned earlier that cats should not be kept outside unless they are CNRed cats, and now he claims that his cat is a free roaming cat while he defines the term with more semantic discussion as a cat that may reside outdoors permanently.

In addition to that, more semantic discussion to avoid admitting that a cat that is missing is indeed a stray cat. Like I said, if the cat didn’t stray, there would be no need to start a thread about a missing cat.

If him and Sandman didn’t get all PC about a simple polite warning, and if he did not turn to sarcasm, and if he didn’t not compare a cat to a 26 years old in terms of dependency, I would not be so argumentative. And I’m only telling you a few things that got my goat here. An attempt to ridicule me because I looked up an older post of his was another one…

But face it, Stray Dog himself will never admit that his own girlfriend’s cat strayed, and that it may, just may have to do with the decisions that took place in order to look after the cat’s best interests. That’s where the problem really lies here, IMOHO. Mr. Sean Mc Cormack could not possibly have anything to do with Taiwan being home to yet one more stray. It’s not conceivable…

I’m done here.