[quote=“mesheel”]My boyfriend is saying, that I should just take the job and quit again, once I found something better, but I don’t wanna do that. It’s not really fair. If I’d accept, I’d do my best…
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“Not fair”? Well, think of it from another perspective, if the time comes where they need to lay you off, or otherwise let you go, do you think they think that it’s “Not fair?” They’ll put you on the street with not even a second thought.
With that in mind, I would agree that accepting, then continuing to look, then leaving when something better or something that you really want comes along is a safe and reasonable course of action.
I wouldn’t lose sleep over whether it’s “fair” or not, because the door swings both ways, and the company wouldn’t think twice about letting you go if they had to.
[quote=“hexuan”]If you can speak even rudimentary Chinese and the guy has any sort of business at all this job is worth about 80k. If it wasn’t bathrooms but computery/hi-tech stuff I’d say 100k.
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80K to 100K sounds like a lot for a non-technical position. Even senior technical positions with 5 years of experience at a reputable company don’t pull in that kind of salary.
[quote=“daniel_han”][quote=“hexuan”]I know you think Taiwanese people are all soft and cuddly, but the guy who is going to pay a multi-lingual foreigner 30k to do a sales job, well, I’m thinking “pointy teeth”…
If you can speak even rudimentary Chinese and the guy has any sort of business at all this job is worth about 80k. If it wasn’t bathrooms but computery/hi-tech stuff I’d say 100k.
Why are you so negative with respect to Taiwanese companies? [/quote]
Because they are shite. And I am not talking about buxibans which are beyond shite. I can’t believe someone living in Germany is going to try and maintain that Taiwanese companies are anything less than shite to work for. Tell me Daniel, no offence, but how many Taiwanese companies have you worked for as a foreigner ?
I have been living and working in Taiwan for quite some time, and I cannot think of a single foreigner I know who worked for a Taiwanese company and wasn’t royally shafted. Oh, and yes, I can entertain you for hours with personal stories from the three or four office jobs I’ve had here over the years ! Oh no ! Don’t start me ! “Taiwanese management” - an oxymoron if ever there was one !
I must admit that I have yet to meet a good Taiwanese manager or boss.
Promises are often not kept, management does not know how to motivate, and they end up resorting to pressure on everybody in order to get things done. This leads to some fucked-up places to work with an inept management not knowing what’s going on and still trying to detail manage nevertheless.
I have been laid of once and reached the following conclusion: it’s fair - they paid me (well) over the years and I did a good job for them in return. When it was time being laid off we were even, the company didn’t owe me anything and neither did I owe them.
As an expat I know about the fact that I am ‘short term’ only, i.e. it’s part of my job to transfer competence to local staff and then get lost. For that you are normally compensated well and receive benefits locals won’t get (accomdation paid for etc.).
People should realize that there is no such thing as job security anymore, nowhere. Not for an expat, not for a local employee. And neither in Taiwan nor in Germany. Anything else is just an illusion.
That said I think mesheel didn’t consider it fair to start a job already knewing she won’t stay long, which is slightly different from the above.
It might not be fair indeed but then neither is the offer. In which case I would rekon they are even - though I stick with my earlier suggestion not to take it up if you don’t like it and don’t need to.
Mr He wrote [quote]Promises are often not kept, management does not know how to motivate, and they end up resorting to pressure on everybody in order to get things done. This leads to some fucked-up places to work with an inept management not knowing what’s going on and still trying to detail manage nevertheless.
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Sounds like a description of management in the UK! There are very few good managers here, public or private sector.
[quote=“aidiming”]Mr He wrote [quote]Promises are often not kept, management does not know how to motivate, and they end up resorting to pressure on everybody in order to get things done. This leads to some fucked-up places to work with an inept management not knowing what’s going on and still trying to detail manage nevertheless.
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Sounds like a description of management in the UK! There are very few good managers here, public or private sector.[/quote]
Actually three. Two of them were big but VERY local corporations. Salary is definitely much lower vs. the West and advancement is not based on meritocracy but seniority but honestly all three of the bosses I’ve had are nice and I actually still keep in touch with them just in case… A lot of the time it’s out of their hands either because of company policies set by the really big boss or they are afraid to make an exception for me for fear of setting a precedence for the rest of the company.
Of course I’m not saying every company is good or even a majority of the company is good. The smaller private limited companies are most likely the subject of your hatred, and yes I’ve had friends who worked for companies that went bankrupt overnight and left the employees high and dry. However there are some good companies and good bosses to work for at least from my own experience so you shouldn’t generalize. You should also make the distinction between management simply being mean, ineptitude, and the nature of the job. One of my boss was inept (or so I thought) but nice so I left because of his mis-management more than anything else. Sometimes I see people complain about their job and their bosses not giving them what they want when in fact the job itself sucks big time (bait-and-switch aside) or simply wasn’t the one they wanted in the first place.
Your mind is made up but I hope the newbies will at least keep an open mind. Worse comes to worst you leave the job and find another one. Good companies are hard to come by everywhere these days so good luck!
Do not go anywhere near that 30K, you need to support yourself.
I think a salary of 45K plus would be acceptable because you are very new here. 60k would be pretty good. You got some languages but the company has to spend quite a long time training. I mean this money is pretty pathetic compared to western countries but that’s the reality here.
As for various figures bandied around here I have to take issue with.
Unless you are working for a very large and profit making Taiwanese concern I really dont think they will offer 80k. I have seen this number offered but rarely followed through on. Even if you are working here years it’s not easy to make that salary. Salaries are poor here.
Many workers aim at getting stocks and bonuses, especially in trading companies. I have heard there are major bonuses this year in electronics companies. You got to put in long hours…
Of course there are some people working in foreign companies here but that really is a rarity and just like Rascal they seem to be short-term in nature. It’s very hard to secure a private foreign company job that is stable, high paid and long term.
Many foreign companies are retrenching/have retrenched and moved to the mainland. Holding out for a job in a foreign company, you could be holding out a VERY long time. The boat has departed.
Some of the multinational jobs are wrapped up by ABCs who get it basically by their good Chinese and connections. Their are some ABCs working in local companies too but not many I feel.
I myself have worked in 3-4 Taiwanese companies because the business I work in does not have any foreign companies based here and my Chinese is still too poor. In general I found the Taiwanese work environment to be low pressure but a little sad in their lack of motivation for staff and the ‘spirit’ of the workers.
You do what you can to advance here. Have no loyalty to finish your work/contract. Lie through your teeth to get out of contract. Try not to let it affect your personality outside work. I have been point blank lied to a few times. When I asked my boss why it changed he said ‘sometimes things change’… Be careful because it is not always your direct boss’ fault, usually this sort of thing goes back to the company chairman or president. This is why I do not harbour any animosity to my former boss, I am just more realistic about contracts/promises here and busy looking after numero uno these days.
There is no recourse but usually the Taiwanese will stick to 90% of the contract. 10% will become ‘subject to change’. I think you need to develop yourself in whatever business you are doing. It’s been easier for me to go through the above process because I can see my career progressing in my area.
To be honest I couldn’t spend more than another couple of years working in the ‘low pay’ and ‘few holiday’ environment but it is okay for a few years. Such issues of quality of life or ‘having a life’ come into play.If you want these things and want to stay in Taiwan you might have to be your own boss or as some foreigners do , go back to teaching.
So you need to choose an area you like. Do NOT sell bathroom furnishings for 30k unless you want to do it short term until something comes up or you want to have a career selling this stuff.
I also taught English for a while and found that the way they treat foreigners there was pretty terrible. You will be treated pretty well in Taiwanese companies by the staff. Most managers will treat you much better than the locals.
If you get a better offer don’t feel guilty about leaving. This is business and it is highly probable your boss is not going to lose his new Lexus due to your sudden departure! You are not getting benefits here. The boss probably got where he is by doing the dirt on his boss. This is about your family and future so look after who is important. It’s not easy to make what some English teachers make but it is possible to make a good % of it.
I would venture to say that there are many, many others who were not as fortunate as you. You seem to have made out pretty well. I suspect many layoffs don’t go as nicely. And, they don’t even have to give you severance if they lay you off by “asking” you to leave on your own. What about those people who are laid off, and walked out the same day, while if you leave, you generally have to give 2 weeks notice? Just some examples.
To summarize, the company isn’t thinking of your welfare in the slightest when they think it’s time for you to be sent packing. Why should an employee think of the company’s welfare in the same context when you are making a decision to jump? Do what’s best/right for you at the time, unless you are really depending on an important reference or recommendation.
It’s about professionalism in meeting the obligations you agreed to. That means that you have an obligation to finish up urgent pending tasks, and give the opportunity for the employer to reassign your tasks. It varies how long this takes, but the traditional two weeks notice is usually adequate to make the transition reasonably smooth. In the cases of layoffs, the compensation of severance is usually offered to offset your inconvenience. And in the case of layoffs the company and your manager have likely identified those to be laid off well in advance and have already taken steps so that they have a smooth transition. Even so, when I got laid off, I spent an hour sending out some emails to make sure things were handled, and people knew where the code was and what the passwords were. If you are professional about things then you don’t burn bridges that can be useful later.
Unless your employer has somehow screwed you over, you should give them the courtesy of a smooth transition on your way out. You don’t want future prospective employers to hear that you reset your passwords and nuked your disk on the way out the door, or left unexpectedly with important tasks left hanging. Why will someone hire someone who in all likelyhood will leave you left hanging?
Last time I was laid off the management wouldn’t let me touch anything once they had told me. Came out with some cliche about ‘it was for my good as well as theirs’. But this seems to be normal practice here.
Last time I was laid off the management wouldn’t let me touch anything once they had told me. Came out with some cliche about ‘it was for my good as well as theirs’. But this seems to be normal practice here.[/quote]
Normal in the U.S. too. Many companies don’t even allow workers to go back to their desks and get their stuff – you go into a meeting in your boss’s office assuming it’s a general chit-chat, and you walk out of his office with an armed security escort to the door.
When I was axed, it wasn’t quite that bad – no guard – but they didn’t leave me alone for a second and they didn’t allow any contact with any other employee, not even to smooth out the transition as I offered.
I guess I was a bit lucky but I also took a gamble during the process and it played to my advantage (don’t want to get into the details); others weren’t as lucky though and perhaps it wasn’t really nice overall, in particular not for the locals, they were given notice in the morning and had to leave by end of the day. I got a 3 month ‘warning’.
True, if you leave on your own you get nothing. But who would do that unless you are guilty of negligence or similar - then it’s actually fair to offer you the opportunity to resign rather than being fired (not being retrenched). Nobody would resign by him/herself if the company is retrenching - that would be pretty stupid IMHO.
Some companies offer voluntary retrenchement though but then you are still entitled to the severance payment. Many locals who were not retrenched in the above case told me they would have done so, saying the package would have been worth it (and they were confident to find a similar job quickly). This was mainly said by administrative staff, engineers thought it would be hard to find a new employement and preferred to stay put.
Here in Taiwan I have a 30 day termination clause in my employment contract which either party has to follow. Should the company wish to retrench me on the same day I would be willing to accept if they pay me out for the notice period (plus compensation as stipulated in my contract).
If I resign i get nothing and the company can choose to keep me for another 30 days. If they want to lock me out on the spot I would just claim the payment for the 30 days and leave.
I might not be happy being retrenched or leaving on the same day, but there is worst and I would see it as a challenge to find a new job or do something else to support myself (which may be in a different country).
True, if you leave on your own you get nothing. But who would do that unless you are guilty of negligence or similar - then it’s actually fair to offer you the opportunity to resign rather than being fired (not being retrenched). Nobody would resign by him/herself if the company is retrenching - that would be pretty stupid IMHO.
Some companies offer voluntary retrenchement though but then you are still entitled to the severance payment. Many locals who were not retrenched in the above case told me they would have done so, saying the package would have been worth it (and they were confident to find a similar job quickly). This was mainly said by administrative staff, engineers thought it would be hard to find a new employement and preferred to stay put.[/quote]
In Taiwan, when they want someone to leave or lay someone off, it’s customary to ask targeted employees to leave on their own. If the employee refuses to follow suit, they try to make life hard for the employee so that he will finally leave, and they don’t have to pay severance.
It’s about professionalism in meeting the obligations you agreed to. That means that you have an obligation to finish up urgent pending tasks, and give the opportunity for the employer to reassign your tasks. It varies how long this takes, but the traditional two weeks notice is usually adequate to make the transition reasonably smooth. In the cases of layoffs, the compensation of severance is usually offered to offset your inconvenience. And in the case of layoffs the company and your manager have likely identified those to be laid off well in advance and have already taken steps so that they have a smooth transition. Even so, when I got laid off, I spent an hour sending out some emails to make sure things were handled, and people knew where the code was and what the passwords were. If you are professional about things then you don’t burn bridges that can be useful later.
Unless your employer has somehow screwed you over, you should give them the courtesy of a smooth transition on your way out. You don’t want future prospective employers to hear that you reset your passwords and nuked your disk on the way out the door, or left unexpectedly with important tasks left hanging. Why will someone hire someone who in all likelyhood will leave you left hanging?[/quote]
I totally agree with what you have written. What I wrote in the previous post was in the context of how a company often doesn’t think twice about you or your welfare, so that you probably shouldn’t overly be concerned with theirs either. Yes, I agree one should give two weeks notice, and not burn bridges. And, a responsible company will give notice of layoffs. They may not tell you beforehand who is targeted, but they will at least let the soldiers know that one is in the works, so people can be prepared for the possibility. The irresponsible company will tell no one until the day of, then tell the targeted people, and walk them out within a couple hours. In a case like that, they already burned your bridges. Severance is usually not very much unless you have been with the company for a long time.
How about contracts? Is there nothing specified about how long before you’re planning to leave you should inform your employer or the other way around?
But this seems to be normal practice here.