Should 台灣 place names stay unchanged due to accepted usage?

Just stumbled across this thread which seems to have been resurrected a few days ago and read the whole of it. Wow… some people have amazingly strong feelings about how the Taiwanese people ought to write their own place names when using the Latin alphabet, and it’s quite entertaining to see those efforts to straightjacket Taiwan’s place names into the pronunciation of Mandarin Chinese. (Surely everybody knows that most of the place names in Taiwan have nothing to do with the culture that brought Mandarin Chinese to the country but derive from the native people of the country, from southern (coastal) Chinese immigrants, and in a few cases (especially in the eastern areas) from Japanese settlement names.)

Anyway, discrepancies between the pronunciation of place names and whatever the official language of the day may be are common all over the world - and if, for example, there were any foreigners here in Okinawa who would insist that all the latinized forms (roma-ji) of our place names be written to match the Japanese standard reading (pronunciation) of those kanji, we would laugh at them - it’s none of their business, to say the least.

Some illustrations from Okinawa:
東風平: in Japanese it might be “higashi-kaze-hira” or (in the “Chinese” reading) “toh-fuu-hei”; and in Okinawa we say “Ko-chin-da”
勢理客: in Japanese (in the “Chinese” reading) it could be “sei-ri-kyaku”; and we say “jittchaku”
保栄茂 : in Japanese (in the “Chinese” reading) it could be “ho-ei-mo”; and we call the place “bin”
南風原: in Japanese it could be “minami-kaze-hara” or (in the “Chinese” reading) “nan-puu-gen”; and for us it’s “ha-ei-baru”
(Of course, those “non-standard” readings can be explained in linguistic terms, but that is irrelevant for the average person.)

Similarly, there is nothing strange about the name of the city widely known as “Keelung” (基隆, previously 雞籠). In POJ it is written “Ke-lang5” - a pronunciation that is apparently derived from a native language - and that sure is closer to “Keelung” than to “Jilong” (hanyu pinyin: ji1 long2). Even in Japanese it is called “kii-ron” or “kii-run” (depending on the skill of the speaker, a sound between “o” and “u” might be used) and not “ki-roh”, which would be the standard reading of those characters.

As it happens, Wikipedia has a decent explanation:

[quote]The city of Keelung was known as Kelung or Keelung to the Western world during the 19th century. However, the Taiwanese people have long called the city Kelang (Taiwanese language POJ: Ke-lâng, Chinese characters: 雞籠, meaning rooster cage).

It has been proposed that the name Keelung was derived from the local mountain that took the shape of a rooster cage. However, it is more probable that the name was derived from the first inhabitants of the region, as are the names of many other Taiwanese cities. In this case, the Ketagalan people were the first inhabitants, and early Han settlers probably approximated “Ketagalan” with “Ke-lâng” (phonetics of the Southern Min Language).

In 1875, during Qing Dynasty rule, the Chinese characters of the name were changed to the more auspicious 基隆 (pinyin: Jīlóng; POJ: Ki-liông, meaning prosperous base). In Mandarin, probably the working language of Chinese government at the time, both the old and new names were likely pronounced Kīlóng (hence “Keelung”). Under Japanese rule (1895-1945), the city was known to the west by Japanese readings of the new name: Kirun, Kiirun or Kīrun. In Modern Standard Mandarin, the official language of the Republic of China, the new name is read Jīlóng, although the locals have continued to call the city Ke-lâng throughout changes in government.[/quote]

So, never mind how the name is read in Mandarin, the locals don’t call it “Jilong” (it’s safe to take a hint from the city’s own website: klcg.gov.tw/en/index.jsp ), and it amuses me no end when some foreigners in Taibei or wherever get all heated up about this… :wink:

I think they should call the place CCW myself . Cramped, Cold and Wet.

Gaylung is like that in winter. The cold and strong wind coming off the water, the incessant rain, the narrow traffic jammed streets, the old dilapulated buildings. Its just not a fun place to be.

[quote=“yuli”]Just stumbled across this thread which seems to have been resurrected a few days ago and read the whole of it. Wow… some people have amazingly strong feelings about how the Taiwanese people ought to write their own place names when using the Latin alphabet, and it’s quite entertaining to see those efforts to straightjacket Taiwan’s place names into the pronunciation of Mandarin Chinese. (Surely everybody knows that most of the place names in Taiwan have nothing to do with the culture that brought Mandarin Chinese to the country but derive from the native people of the country, from southern (coastal) Chinese immigrants, and in a few cases (especially in the eastern areas) from Japanese settlement names.)

Anyway, discrepancies between the pronunciation of place names and whatever the official language of the day may be are common all over the world - and if, for example, there were any foreigners here in Okinawa who would insist that all the latinized forms (roma-ji) of our place names be written to match the Japanese standard reading (pronunciation) of those kanji, we would laugh at them - it’s none of their business, to say the least.

Some illustrations from Okinawa:
東風平: in Japanese it might be “higashi-kaze-hira” or (in the “Chinese” reading) “toh-fuu-hei”; and in Okinawa we say “Ko-chin-da”
勢理客: in Japanese (in the “Chinese” reading) it could be “sei-ri-kyaku”; and we say “jittchaku”
保栄茂 : in Japanese (in the “Chinese” reading) it could be “ho-ei-mo”; and we call the place “bin”
南風原: in Japanese it could be “minami-kaze-hara” or (in the “Chinese” reading) “nan-puu-gen”; and for us it’s “ha-ei-baru”
(Of course, those “non-standard” readings can be explained in linguistic terms, but that is irrelevant for the average person.)

Similarly, there is nothing strange about the name of the city widely known as “Keelung (Jilong)” (基隆, previously 雞籠). In POJ it is written “Ke-lang5” - a pronunciation that is apparently derived from a native language - and that sure is closer to “Keelung (Jilong)” than to “Jilong” (hanyu pinyin: ji1 long2). Even in Japanese it is called “kii-ron” or “kii-run” (depending on the skill of the speaker, a sound between “o” and “u” might be used) and not “ki-roh”, which would be the standard reading of those characters.

As it happens, Wikipedia has a decent explanation:

[quote]The city of Keelung (Jilong) was known as Kelung or Keelung (Jilong) to the Western world during the 19th century. However, the Taiwanese people have long called the city Kelang (Taiwanese language POJ: Ke-lâng, Chinese characters: 雞籠, meaning rooster cage).

It has been proposed that the name Keelung (Jilong) was derived from the local mountain that took the shape of a rooster cage. However, it is more probable that the name was derived from the first inhabitants of the region, as are the names of many other Taiwanese cities. In this case, the Ketagalan people were the first inhabitants, and early Han settlers probably approximated “Ketagalan” with “Ke-lâng” (phonetics of the Southern Min Language).

In 1875, during Qing Dynasty rule, the Chinese characters of the name were changed to the more auspicious 基隆 (pinyin: Jīlóng; POJ: Ki-liông, meaning prosperous base). In Mandarin, probably the working language of Chinese government at the time, both the old and new names were likely pronounced Kīlóng (hence “Keelung (Jilong)”). Under Japanese rule (1895-1945), the city was known to the west by Japanese readings of the new name: Kirun, Kiirun or Kīrun. In Modern Standard Mandarin, the official language of the Republic of China, the new name is read Jīlóng, although the locals have continued to call the city Ke-lâng throughout changes in government.[/quote]

So, never mind how the name is read in Mandarin, the locals don’t call it “Jilong” (it’s safe to take a hint from the city’s own website: klcg.gov.tw/en/index.jsp ), and it amuses me no end when some foreigners in Taibei or wherever get all heated up about this… :wink:[/quote]
Locals do very often call places by their Mandarin names. After all, many people all over Taiwan use Mandarin not only in work/official contexts but also in some social ones. However, many people also often use the Taiwanese version of place names. And if the standard for Romanization of place names were a consistent and logical system for Romanizing Taiwanese, I can’t see many people here objecting. (The same for Hakka/aboriginal language writing systems where most people call a place by its name in those languages).

But you’re not in favor of either way, as far as I can see. Do you prefer the spelling of place names to be inconsistent and not really reflective of the way anyone pronounces them now?

Or is your main point simply that us “foreigners” shouldn’t have any opinions about the place where we live, work, pay taxes, etc? If that’s the case, what do you think about the gradual move island-wide towards HYPY as a standard for Romanization of place names? Is that bad because many foreigners also want consistent use of a standard? Or is it OK now because “locals” are doing it?

I am not surprised about either. :wink:

I don’t object to any romanization system - it is for the benefit of non-kanji-reading foreigners, and i suspect the Taiwanese themselves couldn’t care less about it. In any case, whichever system is being used, you can bet that there is no consistent/ logical system for romanizing Taiwanese that would meet everybody’s approval. :wink: (In fact, the objections i’ve heard against some consistent romanization systems, such as Nihonshiki (in the case of Japanese) or hanyu pinyin (in the case of Mandarin) come mostly from native speakers of English who complain that the romanization “looks strange/unintuitive” - nevermind that, from a linguistic point of view, Nihonshiki is the most consistent of the three common romanization systems for Japanese.)

I am in favor of letting the Taiwanese decide in each case what they prefer to use. I’ve never seen the official homepage of Taibei and don’t know what romanization they use there in the English version (assuming they have that), but i saw the homepage of Keelung/Jilong where the romanization is “keelung”. I find nothing wrong with that, and i am just amused about how some people apparently think that this is not OK.

Hm… i haven’t seen any problem of that sort on my short forays into Taiwan. Yes, i noticed at least three different romanizations in Hualien: hanyu pinyin on maps and tongyong pinyin and bits of MPSII on street signs. But i don’t call that a problem, since it doesn’t take much to figure out what the romanization means: look at the kanji and it is obvious, for example, that “zhong” and “jhong” mean the same, and that “tz” and “zi” mean the same, and so on. Anyway, to find out how the locals pronounce the name of a village or street you have to hear how the locals say it!

There is no “should” in what i wrote (i would never think of denying anybody their opinion about anything). I am just amused about certain complaints, such as that about “Keelung”, as if that romanization were totally unrelated to what many people who live in that city actually say. :slight_smile:

[quote=“joesax”]Or is your main point simply that us “foreigners” shouldn’t have any opinions about the place where we live,
work, pay taxes, etc?[/quote]

That’s exactly what she means. How dare you have an opinion, big nose.

[quote=“Gao Bohan”][quote=“joesax”]Or is your main point simply that us “foreigners” shouldn’t have any opinions about the place where we live,
work, pay taxes, etc?[/quote]

That’s exactly what she means. How dare you have an opinion, big nose.[/quote]
There are educated opinions and other kind of opinions… :wink:
But everybody is welcome to theirs regardless! :slight_smile:

Some well-known place names and personalities in Taiwan - and the People’s Republic of China - would be spelled like this in the Yale Romanization:

Jiang Zhongzheng (Chiang Kai-shek’s political name) would be Jyang Jungjeng in Yale.
Daxi would be Dasyi in Yale.
Xinjiang (East Turkistan) would be Syinjyang in Yale.
Jiang Junhui (the Chinese name of the New York-born and Chicago-raised California state controller John Chiang) would be Jyang Jyunhwei in Yale.
Sun Zhongshan (Sun Yat-sen’s political name) would be Swen J u n g s h a n in Yale.
Zhang Juncai (one of China’s tallest men) would be Jang Jyuntsai in Yale.

A lot of people believed the Yale romanization system, since its inception in 1943, would bring the spellings of the names of these places closer to their rough English pronunciation approximations. What do you all think of the Yale system?

~Ben (CJ750)

I think it’s irrelevant. It isn’t the international standard being used, and it will NEVER become that standard. It’s like trying to imagine an alternative to the metric system. There’s a standard in place, and it works. Why try harder?

Well thats because you are young and don’t understand imperial measurements, which by he way are still used as they have been around a lot longer than the metric system which becaome more commenly used after the French revolution. You should know this being a Canadian.

inches, feet, yards, fathoms, rods, chains, furlongs, miles, nautical miles etc

So what happens here when an international company, such as an airline group, asks to change the name of a place? As in Prestwick, Scotland, where locals wished to call the local airport after the locally born Scottish national bard - Robert Burns - but instead it was renamed “Glasgow Prestwick Airport” by Infratil. Does that happen here near to larger settlements?

Cheers Aulyin

What about the Fujian-specific dialects that are Amoy (Xiamen), Hokkien (Fujian), Minnan and Teochew (Chaozhou)?

And also, Gwoyeu Romatzyh, the system devised by Zhao Yuanren?

John Chiang’s name - the California politician - is, in GR, rendered as Jiang Jiunn-huei, wherein jiang corresponds to jiang1 and jiunn and huei correspond respectively to jun4 and hui1.

Likewise, the like-named Taiwanese politician John Chiang, whose Chinese name is Jiang Xiaoyan (born Zhang Xiaoyan at birth due to he and his late twin brother, Zhang Xiaoci aka Winston Chang, being born out of wedlock, they are the illegitimate sons of Jiang Jingguo (Chiang Ching-kuo / Kingkwo) and his then wife Zhang Yaruo, who would die before the twins were one year old), has his name rendered as Jeang Shiaw-yan because of the Pinyin transliteration being Jiang3 Xiao4yan2. It is funny how the three tones are all similar and arranged like that of his grandfather’s Chinese name, Chiang Kai-shek (Jiang3 Jie4shi2 in Mandarin Pinyin). Zhang1 is rendered as Jang in GR.

~Ben

When Florence becomes Firenze , Rome becomes Roma, Turin becomes Torino then Taipei should become Taibei. Otherwise, leave it alone.

IF Beijingers want to have Beijing Duck instead of Peking Duck they can. I think the place lost some mystique when it became Beijing instead of Peking.

I still see (never been there tho) Peking as a city full of Pekingnese dogs (one of my fav breeds) running around en masse .

That’s my take on things. There are already established English names of places.

Should we insist that the French start spelling “Londres” as “London”? Should we scrap “Munich” in favor of “Munchen”? “Vienna” in favor of “Wien”? Should the city council of Seoul have jurisdiction over the entire Chinese-speaking world, forcing them to call the city “Shou’er” instead of “Hancheng”? Would any of us like it if the Thais (umm, the Siamese!) insisted that we stop calling Bangkok “Bangkok” and instead call it “Krungthep”?

Screw “Myanmar”, “Mumbai” and “Chennai”. Give me my Burma, Bombay and Madras back.

I think, English is an absolutely irrelevant language. We should use a romanisation system which maps the sounds so that speakers of Swahili can easily pronounce it. Then this romanisation system its also fine for other languages, e.g. English or Finnish.

[quote=“Satellite TV”]Well thats because you are young and don’t understand imperial measurements, which by he way are still used as they have been around a lot longer than the metric system which becaome more commenly used after the French revolution. You should know this being a Canadian.

inches, feet, yards, fathoms, rods, chains, furlongs, miles, nautical miles etc[/quote]
This system is so weird. How do you actually have folding rules etc.?

Does this go like 1,2,3,4,56,7,
1
1,2,3,4,5,6,7
2
1,2,3,4,5,6,7 ?
(meaning that the ordinary printed number is the smaller unit (i don’t know which one it is… inch? the equivalent to centimetre) and the bold printed one is the larger unit (feet? or whatever))
I absolutely cannot imagine how to use that.

It’s München, dammit! :fume: You wouldn’t want to call South Carolina “Sous Carolina“ (sorry, this example just sucks. Why is there no English city/state/whatever which has a th in its name?), just because th and s sound the same, right?

Just one problem with that: There already is a Geelong - in Australia. And don’t get me wrong, the leading “G” is pronounced as “J” thus “jee-long,” and the Pinyin transliteration of that thus becomes “ji1lang3” (Jīlǎng) if I am not mistaken.

Just one problem with that: There already is a Geelong - in Australia. And don’t get me wrong, the leading “G” is pronounced as “J” thus “jee-long,” and the Pinyin transliteration of that thus becomes “ji1lang3” (Jīlǎng) if I am not mistaken.[/quote]

Well we could use the Taiwanese pronunciation of Keelung. " GAyLung " anyone?

Just one problem with that: There already is a Geelong - in Australia. And don’t get me wrong, the leading “G” is pronounced as “J” thus “jee-long,” and the Pinyin transliteration of that thus becomes “ji1lang3” (Jīlǎng) if I am not mistaken.[/quote]

Well we could use the Taiwanese pronunciation of Keelung. " GAyLung " anyone?[/quote]
I wonder if what you came up with is from the Cantonese (Gei-lung or Kei-lung depending on romanization preferences)?

~Ben

Just one problem with that: There already is a Geelong - in Australia. And don’t get me wrong, the leading “G” is pronounced as “J” thus “jee-long,” and the Pinyin transliteration of that thus becomes “ji1lang3” (Jīlǎng) if I am not mistaken.[/quote]

Well we could use the Taiwanese pronunciation of Keelung. " GAyLung " anyone?[/quote]

I think it’s more “gay-lang”, or sounds that way to me, anyway.

It’s München, dammit! :fume: You wouldn’t want to call South Carolina “Sous Carolina“ (sorry, this example just sucks. Why is there no English city/state/whatever which has a th in its name?), just because th and s sound the same, right?[/quote]
Well excuuuuuse me! I suppose I could fire up MS Word, go to Insert Symbols, search for an umlauted u, select it, copy it, paste it into my post, and hope it doesn’t mutate into a bizarre Chinese character on some browsers, all for the sake of two dots that aren’t available on the standard QWERTY keyboard.

yeah gay lang