Similarities between Thai and Taigi (Taiwanese Holo)

Language Taiwanese and Hakka Corner
1

I remember this subject was touched on in a thread a while ago, but I am not able to find it. I was looking for negative and affirmative usage in Chinese and saw this paper
ntnu.edu.tw/tcsl/tcsleaforum … %A4%E5.pdf

In which it studied Thai’s negative adverb and adjective ไม (Mai), which is extremely similar to Taigi’s negative adverb and adjective mài (勿). There are three main negative words in Thai: ไม (mai), ไมได (maidai), and อยา (yai)

The paper provided a list of words that are similar between Taigi and Thai:
English: Thai: Taigi
Leg: ขา (khaá): Kha(跤)
Waist: เอว (aēo): iơ (腰)
Kai-lan: คะนา (Khă-naã): Khé-ná-à(芥藍仔)
Celery: ผักคึ่นไฉ (Khèun –chhaài): khûn-tshài/Khīn-tshài (芹菜)
Peach: ทอ (thõr): thô-à/thô-à (桃子)
Noodle: หมี (miĭ): mī (麵)
Soy sauce: ซีอิ๊ว (Siī ĩu): sīnn-iû (豉油)
No/not: ไม ( mài): mài (勿)
Pretty/beauty: สวย (súai): súi (媠)
Table: โตะ (Tóa): toh-á (桌子)
Two: สอง (sórng): song/siang (雙)
Three: สาม (sáam): sam/sann (三)
Four: สี (Siĭ): sì/sù (四)
Seven: เจ็ด (Jĕd): tshit (七)
Eight: แปด (Păed): pat/peh (八)
Nine: เกา (Kào): káu/kiú (九)
Ten: สิข (sĭb): si̍p/tsa̍p (十)

The paper claims these are loan words from 潮州 (tiô-tsiu), also borrowing the entire negative system seems to be a pretty significant process.

2

It’s hard to imagine basic concepts like “no” “leg” “waist” “pretty” and “table” being loan words, isn’t it?

3

Teochew has influenced many SE Asian languages. No surprise though, the teochew people were one of the largest dialect groups settling the area. Vietnamese also shows its influence, Lao even more so.

4

Well, at least for English, no, leg, waist, and pretty are all from either PIE or Proto-Germanic root words. Table is probably Latin.

5

Hm, nothing here strikes me as odd - given close contact of two languages over long enough time both lexical and syntactical borrowings can happen (a similar case that comes to mind: Sorbian adopting German verb-at-the-end sentence structures in addition to a nice bunch of loan words).
With Thai and Taigi, it would help know when (in history) and where (geographically) there has been close contact between the two languages (or their precursors or related languages having similar coincidences). Does the paper give any hints?

6

[quote=“yuli”]
With Thai and Taigi, it would help know when (in history) and where (geographically) there has been close contact between the two languages (or their precursors or related languages having similar coincidences). Does the paper give any hints?[/quote]

No, unfortunately it isn’t a linguistic history paper, it’s more comparative and focused on applications.

Wiki points out Chinese merchant immigrants have been in Thailand since at least 1367. In 1766, when the Burmese sacked the capital Phra Nakhon Si Ayutthaya, it was the descendent of a Teochew immigrant Zheng Xin (鄭信), known as Somdet Phra Chao Taksin Maharat in Thai, who drove out the Burmese and established a new kingdom. During his rein he encouraged Teochew people to immigrate to Thailand.

7

I wasn’t aware there were any similarities. Other then a few loan words as previously mentioned.

Not saying you are wrong, just saying that I for one have never heard of that.

8

[quote=“tommy525”]I wasn’t aware there were any similarities. Other then a few loan words as previously mentioned.

Not saying you are wrong, just saying that I for one have never heard of that.[/quote]

The grammar structure also seems similar, at least in the examples given in the paper.

9

Thai has been influenced by Chinese languages (specifically Teochew - which is a part of the Southern Min Family, like Taiwanese) both because of trade and because the Thai people are said to originate from around Guangxi. Some also come from Chinese via Vietnamese, I believe.

Even the Thai numbers 3-10 are loaned directly from Teochew.

10

There are heaps of words of Chinese origin in Thai, borrowed from different times and dialects, from as ancient as the numbers 2-10 (雙, 三, …) to far more recent borrowings (primarily from Chaozhou) like kuay-tiao ก๋วยเตี๋ยว 粿條.

เค็ม (khem) salty, from 鹹
กับ (kap) with/and, from 及
ถ่าน (thaan) charcoal, from 炭
ป้าย (pai) sign, from 牌 (Hokkien: pâi)
เส้น (sen) line, noodle, from 線
กว่า (kwaa) comparative marker, from 過
ผึ้ง (pheung) bee, from 蜂
แล้ว (laew) perfective particle, from 了
อ้วน (uan) fat/rotund, from 圓
เปลี่ยน (plian) change, from 變 (this is an ancient borrowing, as it preserves the original pl- of Old Chinese).

This is just a small sample.

Sometimes it’s the other way around:

尿 urine,from เยี่ยว (yaaw) (the Lao language preserves the ny- initial that was simplified to y- in Thai) This is an ancient borrowing.

11

Considering that (as I just discovered) over half of the words in Thai are borrowed from Pali, Sanskrit and Old Khmer, not too surprising I guess.

12

By the way, อย่า isn’t yai, it’s yaa. It means “don’t”, as in “Don’t go!”

13

even Japanese 1-5 sound similar to Chinese. I cannot imagine that these were original Japanese or they were borrowed since Tang dynasty.

14

Suay meaning good looking/beautiful in Thai sounds close to the Mandarin word Shuai (handsome)

Edit: just saw that it is listed in the original post. :whistle:

15

The negatives are certainly not a recent borrowing. The similarity to the Sino-Tibetan negatives (Tibetan “ma”, Burmese “ma” and Old Chinese 無 “ma” and its derivatives) perhaps reflect ancient influence, a common source, or even coincidence, since in many languages negatives tend to involve nasal consonants.

16

เลอะเทอะ leuh theuh - sloppy, messy. Chinese 邋遢 lata

17

lap-thap in Taigi, both syllables are entering tone, fits the Thai pronunciation perfectly.

18

ขี่ khi "to ride (horse or bike) 騎 qi “to ride (horse or bike)”
เงิน ngeun “money” 銀 yin “silver”
หมึก meuk “ink/squid” 墨 mo “ink”
เสียง siang “sound” 聲 sheng “sound”
แขก khaek “guest” 客 ke “guest”
กี่ gi “how many” 幾 ji “how many”
ห้าง haang “department store” 行 hang “shop”
ทอง thong “gold” 銅 tong “copper” (cf. Vietnamese currency “dong”)
เช้า chao “morning” 朝 chao “morning”
ขอ khaw “request, beg, seek” 求 qiu “request, beg, seek”
ม้า maa “horse” 馬 ma “horse”
กว้าง gwaang “wide” 廣 guang “wide”
ส่ง song 送 song “to send, to take somebody somewhere (e.g. airport) and see them off”
ไก่ gai “chicken” 雞 ji “chicken”

And maybe, just maybe:

รับ rap 納 na - receive

19

[quote=“Chris”]
หมึก meuk “ink/squid” 墨 mo “ink”[/quote]

ba̍k in Taigi

[quote=“Chris”]
เสียง siang “sound” 聲 sheng “sound”[/quote]

siann in Taigi

[quote=“Chris”]
แขก khaek “guest” 客 ke “guest”[/quote]

khek, kheh, khueh, khiak in Taigi

[quote=“Chris”]
รับ rap 納 na - receive[/quote]

nah, lap in Taigi

20

ปู pu “to spread out” 布 bu “to spread out” (e.g. 公布) -> “that which is spread out” (cloth). Perhaps related to ผ้า pha “cloth” 帕 “handkerchief”. Old Chinese pronunciation of 布 was “pah”.

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