Slavery. Who gives a shit?

Can we whites get an official apology from the North African nations for the 1 million+ whites captured by North African Muslims and forced into slavery between 1530 and 1780? Thanks.

researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm

What a scary, scary thought that someone could be so ignorant about the importance of history.

I can think of a few events older than 200 years that have something to do with people today.

The Declaration of Independence would be one. The invention of the wheel being another.

A more relevant question might be, “Why are you being so defensive about the issue of slavery?” No one can make someone feel guilty. So if you don’t think you are, why the bitching?[/quote]

Cause bitching is fun. The declaration of Independence doesnt mean anything me to me either.

Slavery was practised long before the white man took up a trade still practiced by blacks today.

Nope, we had it coming.

The real slavery issues: guardian.co.uk/commentisfree … 70,00.html

Interesting, the British government is trying to introduce legislation which will prevent foreign care workers from changing their employer which is being decried as ‘modern day slavery’. Sound like anywhere we know?

I am still waiting for Mongolia to apologize to the world for unleashing Genghis Khan upon it. And yet, the wretched…racists? hordists? something-ists, anyway, they continue to view him as a great leader and all that despite the best efforts of Communism to reeducate them. The ingrates…

Anyway, putting on my philosophical hat (is that spelled philosophy or philophosy? I could never remember) I suggest beginning by stating, in the very abstract, under what sorts of conditions ought a person or entity to apologize. Details should include

(a) What crimes or actions demand an apology?
(b) What persons or institutions owe the apology?
© What persons or institutions are owed the apology?
(d) Should there be restitution as well, and if so, calculated on what basis?

Once you have your law or ethical principle formulated, I suggest trying it out on various real or conceivable conflicts. (Don’t forget those wicked Mongolians!) After all, we wouldn’t want a situation where talk of apologizing comes up only in cases where some politically influential group feels victimized. We have to watch out for the little guy, remember. (No no, not THAT little guy! That might be the sort of thing would require an apology.)

Good luck, philophosers!

If you ask a Japanese student about wartime attrocities commited by the Japanese during WW2, he/she will likely respond with a less than educated response.

None of us here today were alive when slavery existed. The fact that everyone knows about slavery is because it was documented and in turn made part of the education system. Isn’t that acknowledgement?

It would be pointless for Britain to apologize. I suggest we concentrate on the slavery that still exists today, and the victims of this slavery, and try to eradicate it, and try to give its victims a chance at a better life.
Arging over whether to apologize for something that happened centuries ago is just a way to distract us from real issues, issues that maybe we or the politicians don’t want to bother dealing with.

It doesn’t hurt me one whit for my government to acknowledge the historical wrongs of the nation and apologize for them. Those wrongs are emphatically still relevant, to the extent that the descendents of the wrong are still aggrieved, and although words of apology cannot begin to make up for the historical suffering, I hope that when spoken in sincerity they can soothe any lingering feelings of resentment and strengthen the social fabric of the nation and the sense of cohesion among its people. Additionally, the process of learning about, acknowledging and regretting historical errors will, I hope, make us more sensitive to what is right and wrong, and strengthen our resolve to never repeat them.

What a scary, scary thought that someone could be so ignorant about the importance of history.

I can think of a few events older than 200 years that have something to do with people today.

The Declaration of Independence would be one. The invention of the wheel being another.

A more relevant question might be, “Why are you being so defensive about the issue of slavery?” No one can make someone feel guilty. So if you don’t think you are, why the bitching?[/quote]

Ignorant about the importance of history? Me? Who mentioned the importance of history? History is important, and the events of the time were personally important to the people involved. But I’m talking about today. Nobody alive today was involved, and while there are many lessons to learn, nobody alive today is responsible. Nobody alive today is a victim (of those particular circumstances) unless they choose to be. It was their problem, not ours, and making it MY problem by blaming me just perpetuates the whole horrible mess.

Taking a historical example, the people of various Balkan states made war and inflicted ethnic cleansing on one another many times in recent history and the justification was that they were settling historical differences, avenging battles they lost hundreds of years ago.

Personally, I believe that we’re all born individuals and should have the same rights and opportunities in life regardless of who our parents were, or their parents, etc. Race, colour, geographical origin, gender, all of it, it’s all irrelevant to me, and I don’t like being held accountable for things done by other whiteys, Brits, men, people with long hair, or whatever in the ancient past. I’m not responsible for the sins of past generations, and if I am then I’m also taking the credit for the good they did.

You have no way of knowing if I’m descended from the Quakers who led the anti-slavery drive, or from peasants who had no more control over their lives than the slaves owned by the priviliged few. So why am I being asked to apologise for the actions of others?

“Why are you being so defensive about the issue of slavery?” No one can make someone feel guilty. So if you don’t think you are, why the bitching? I’m being defensive, like a lot of my countrymen, because we are once more being asked to apologise for the actions of others. Attempts are being made to make ‘us’ feel guilty. A ‘them and us’ situation is being created among people who, speaking for myself anyway, would rather consider individuals on their own merits instead of labelling because of their race.

Why are you defending the right of black people to blame me for bad things that happened to other people? Your colour may be the most important thing in my life, but I don’t care about it. If you will treat me as an individual, as I try to treat everybody, then you will recognise that I, like a great many other people, am being wronged here by people who make assumptions about people because of their skin colour.

Well, fuck 'em. Anyone wants an apology from me is a racist. Anyone who thinks I automatically share the views of some other whiteys they once met is a racist. I know we all look the same to you, but please try to appreciate that we’re all different and want to be respected fro who we are, not for who you think our ancestors were and what they may have done to people who have nothing to do with you. The truth is that you and I have a lot more in common than either of us does with anybody from that era. And people living in the UK now, regardless of colour, have more in common with each other than they do with their ancestors. So this crap is just divisive racist stupidity which undermines any efforts being made by ordinary people make racism a thing of the past. Nasty, nasty, nasty, and I’m totally opposed to it.

Learn some respect, instead of blaming people you don’t know because you choose to see yourself as a victim.

No, I’m from Birmingham where black on black beatings, killings and drug wars are the common. Where Blacks pull up to police cars and tell the cops to “fuck off off their patch.” Where in one week one branch of McDonald’s got done over by black men with guns four times in one week.
Where in two years two of my female colleagues ended up being pulped to within an inch of their lives while on foot patrol by a gang of blacks.

Where I got mugged by 3 black men at a bus station when I was 17 - and then after making a complaint was attacked a further times over the course of 2 years.

And then cry “police brutality” when they are brought down and arrested with a bit of force. Sorry, Imaniou, but it it not surprising that blacks get a bad rep?

[quote=“Dangermouse”]
No, I’m from Birmingham where black on black beatings, killings and drug wars are the common. Where Blacks pull up to police cars and tell the cops to “fuck off off their patch.” Where in one week one branch of McDonald’s got done over by black men with guns four times in one week.
Where in two years two of my female colleagues ended up being pulped to within an inch of their lives while on foot patrol by a gang of blacks.

Where I got mugged by 3 black men at a bus station when I was 17 - and then after making a complaint was attacked a further times over the course of 2 years.

And then cry “police brutality” when they are brought down and arrested with a bit of force. Sorry, Imaniou, but it it not surprising that blacks get a bad rep?[/quote]

Well, whenever this is brought up, you can always excuse it with slavery, or emotional scars inflicted on the group as a whole due to slavery. And then ask for an excuse.

Note that in my view, any community should look forward rather than back. Not moving on, especially when the descendants of the perpetrators have acknowledged the crime, and the crime stopped taking place 200 years ago is pitiful.

However, the victim mentality still present can drive mose sane observers up the wall.

I read in a respected magazine that the reason to that afro-americans have a higher rate of single-parent families due to slavery, where male slaves from time to time would be sold after they started a family with a female slave. They would re-start the family efforts at their new owners farm etc etc.

The excuse is pathetic. Now a few generations after slavery ended, it’s more likely a case of a bunch of immature young pricks getting girls pregnant and then being allowed by ? to get away with it. (Wonder if they pay child support - it would lift a few low income single parent families out of poverty).

And no Imaniou, among middle class north Europeans, it’s in general not on to air racist viewpoints at a family reunion. Racist sentiments do exist, however they are not seen as something casually aired at a party. I am a middle class European, trust me I know.

US is not Europe, and the failure of US to actually tackle it’s tortous past is deeply regrettable, and something which ought to be addressed somehow. However, please don’t try to use that logic on the UK and other European countries, we have acknowledged and moved on, so should you.

Mr. He -
Regarding the rise of the single parent famil among Blacks in the USA, it has been directly linked to the beginning of Federal Programs and subsidies started under President Lyndon Johnson in the mid-60’s. His “Great Society” programs.
Prior to these government societal experiments, the Black single parent family rate was even with the White single parent rate.
And both were low.

I stand corrected, however I do remember to have read it in I think it was newsweek a few years back.

Note that is was proffered as an excuse only and not as the real reason. It was a convenient way for some community leaders to avoid facing responsibility for the social crisis caused by this behavior and family pattern.

What?

Why are these people aggrieved? What the fuck do the sufferings of their ancestors have to do with me? Why should I be blamed for things done by other people in bygones ages, and why the fuck are people who weren’t even there still harbouring ‘lingering feelings of resentment’? They have no reason to have any personal animosity towards me or anyone else alive today, not for things that happened 200 years ago.

Of course, they may still feel discriminated against today but I’m not a part of that problem either. Resent me for oppressing you, fine, but resent me because I’m white and you’re a racist piece of shit with a chip on your shoulder.

Some of us want to move forward and make the world a better place, but that isn’t going to happen because too many people are still aggrieved about the things that happened to people they’ve never met in centuries past.

So here’s a question.

I used to know a girl who was adopted as a baby by a normal white couple in the UK. She happens to have black skin, but her adoptive parents and siblings never considered it to be an issue and she grew up surrounded by people who respected her as an individual.

She’s never considered herself ‘black’ because it’s a meaningless label to her and the people in her life. She hasn’t had to deal with any of the discrimination or lack of opportunity claimed by the aggrieved minority either.

So, do I owe her an apology? She’s the descendant of slaves and I’m a whitey.
Or is she now ‘white’ and has to apologise to the black community?
Or is it just possible that some people, regardless of their skin colour, can just get on with their lives without being labelled as anything by anybody?

YOU as an individual do not, but the nation which historically oppressed her ancestors owes an apology, IMO, to the group as a whole which was oppressed, for the sake of those amongst them who still feel wronged. And it does you no harm to have the nation so apologize, so why get your frilly panties in a bunch over it?

forget about the past.

Why are we fighting slavery that is still going on today? whether sexual slavery (white slavers), slavery still practised in Asia, Africa, Ecetera.

IMO, no.

But thats coming from a person who has been called a “racist” by a**hats on Forumosa previously…among other things… :idunno:

[quote=“Jack Burton”]forget about the past.

Why are we fighting slavery that is still going on today? whether sexual slavery (white slavers), slavery still practised in Asia, Africa, Ecetera.[/quote]

Yes, instead about quarreling about apologies, we should focus on stopping the slavery still taking place.

I would not be surprised if the total number of slaves globally is not materially different from the number bacl when most European countries were involved in the shameful trade.

YOU as an individual do not, but the nation which historically oppressed her ancestors owes an apology, IMO, to the group as a whole which was oppressed, for the sake of those amongst them who still feel wronged. And it does you no harm to have the nation so apologize, so why get your frilly panties in a bunch over it?[/quote]

She’s a third generation Brit, a part of the nation herself, and has the same rights and privileges as everyone else. SHE hasn’t suffered, and she’s not part of any mythical ‘group’ defined by the colour of its skin.

The people alive today are not ‘wronged’, they are wrong and they’re trying to impose their view on the rest of us.

It does no harm for the nation, or individuals, to say that something was done that was wrong. We can all disapprove of slavery without being responsible for it. We, black, white, yellow, whatever, can unite in our condemnation of actions taken by nations that are wrong, past or present. But ‘we’ don’t have to apologise because ‘we’ haven’t done anything wrong.

So who are ‘we’? Is this concept defined purely by skin, and all white people are to be held equally accountable regardless of that their ancestors actually did? Or are ‘we’ all Brits enjoying the benefits accrued on the back of slavery hundreds of years ago?

It is statistically probable that my ancestors were impoverished people tied to the land and at the mercy of the rich and powerful minority, slaves in all but name. It was their sweat, and blood shed in numerous battles ordained by the rich and privileged few, that made the country what it is today as much as any slave labour on the other side of the Atlantic.

All those former slaves, white and black, now living in the UK have the same rights and privileges. They have no more cause to be aggrieved than I do, and certainly no reason to ask anything of me. They share in the wealth of the nation as much as they feel inclined to, so in fact they’re benefitting from the sacrifices my ancestors were forced to make.

Unfortunately, many black people (whites too) choose not to utilise the education and opportunities that are there for the taking. Doing so gets you labelled as ‘acting white’ by people who make a virtue out of being poor and disadvantaged, and it is this victim mentality that is now driving calls for an apology.

Apologies are not going to be forthcoming because apologies mean admitting liability, and there are huge lawsuits at stake.

[quote]Various claims are being pursued, the most striking being a $777 trillion damages case lodged by the World Reparations and Repatriation Truth Commission.

The Ghana-based body says Africa was systematically and unlawfully stripped of its human resources for more than 400 years.
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“We do believe in reparations,” says activist David Pott, who is organising a month-long march from Hull to London to mark the trade’s abolition.

“If we just said sorry, I don’t think that would be enough.” [/quote]

This all translates as “I’m black and I’m poor and it’s all your fault because you’re white, so give me some money,” and is a slap in the face for anyone who tries to respect individuals for who they are instead of where they came from. Thankfully, I am aware that not all black people are part of this stupidity, and apologise to anyone who got the wrong idea.