Snowfall is a thing of the past!

[quote=“rowland”]
Oh, and and anyone who sincerely thinks that climate can exist independently of weather is a hopeless nincompoop.[/quote]

Whoever said that?

Basically, “climate” is weather patterns averaged over a very long period of time. If temperatures or precipitation start moving up/down year after year, you are probably looking at climate change. On the other hand, if every single weather event is hysterically touted as climate change (or proof that climate change is a hoax), then somebody needs to calm down.

You know what else makes people look like a hopeless nincompoop? Not being able to understand basic English when it’s supposed to be your first language. Climate existing independently of weather? Nobody said anything of the sort, but apparently there is a hopeless nincompoop on the forum who thinks someone did.

There were statements made describing the uselessness of focusing on outliers. I sure hope you understand what that means…

[quote=“BrentGolf”]
There were statements made describing the uselessness of focusing on outliers. I sure hope you understand what that means…[/quote]

I understand what it means when an awfully large fraction of the data points are angrily dismissed as outliers. I know confirmation bias when it’s on the defensive and throwing a hissy fit in front of me.

I’ve always been impressed with how self-aware you are, roland.

[quote=“rowland”][quote=“BrentGolf”]
There were statements made describing the uselessness of focusing on outliers. I sure hope you understand what that means…[/quote]

I understand what it means when an awfully large fraction of the data points are angrily dismissed as outliers. I know confirmation bias when it’s on the defensive and throwing a hissy fit in front of me.[/quote]

Of course there are ways to deceive oneself and dismiss the bulk of the consensus, but I’ve never understood the point of such a self deception. If you were making money off deceiving yourself and others, say writing a book to the contrary position or were a marketing guy for an oil major, I could maybe understand where it comes from. But as far as I’m aware, and please correct me if I’m wrong, but you don’t seem to be making any money off taking a position that goes wildly against scientific consensus. So why the self deception? What do you have to gain by it?

Is it just a feel good thing? You’re not a scientist so screw what those egg heads think on all topics? Why so little respect for the scientific process that is responsible for everything good in this world? The only reason you are typing these self deceptive messages on a chat forum is because scientists made that possible. Where’s the thank you for them doing what they do so you can enjoy your life? And in the case of climate science, your continued existence.

Science, not individual opinions is what you’re arguing against. So again, IF you know what the word science means, you should already know how sound the arguments for climate change are. It’s not just some dudes opinion, it is an extremely lengthy process requiring an enormous amount of self checks and balances to arrive at the conclusions we accept today. Of course they are up for modification as more information comes to light, but as of now, it’s pretty clear what the best explanation for what we see is.

Dude, it’s the consensus that’s the money making scam.

No, that is not the state of the science. Climate change alarmism is based on models that have proved spectacularly flawed. The $$$s that go to research are skewing the findings to a large degree by flooding the market with populist, half-baked theories that are ginned up and issued rapidly to take advantage of the next tranche of funding cycles. IF there were not $$$s, would there really be the same number of “studies?” As the world continues to warm, we find decade after decade that the alarmist targets predicted fail to emerge. Warmer? Yup, and so?

I’m not suggesting there aren’t irrational alarmists out there spreading misinformation. That exists in literally all walks of life, and science is not immune to stupid people, or greed.

But to dumb this down to the lowest possible level, are you saying that it is not obvious to you that human activity is harming the planet? I’d like to hear you say that. Tell me it’s not obvious to you that the burning of fossil fuels comes at an environmental cost. I’d like to meet the person who actually can’t recognize that as a common sense truth.

I’m not suggesting there aren’t irrational alarmists out there spreading misinformation. That exists in literally all walks of life, and science is not immune to stupid people, or greed.

But to dumb this down to the lowest possible level, are you saying that it is not obvious to you that human activity is harming the planet? I’d like to hear you say that. Tell me it’s not obvious to you that the burning of fossil fuels comes at an environmental cost. I’d like to meet the person who actually can’t recognize that as a common sense truth.[/quote]
Yeah, but scientists have no or little sense of humor.

This one was not uploaded by ted talks. They actually apologized for it.

But they applauded to this

and this

I hope this is not too much science for you guys?

No, that is not the state of the science. Climate change alarmism is based on models that have proved spectacularly flawed. The $$$s that go to research are skewing the findings to a large degree by flooding the market with populist, half-baked theories that are ginned up and issued rapidly to take advantage of the next tranche of funding cycles. IF there were not $$$s, would there really be the same number of “studies?” As the world continues to warm, we find decade after decade that the alarmist targets predicted fail to emerge. Warmer? Yup, and so?[/quote]

So we are at least in agreement that the globe is becoming warmer?

I also believe that global warming is occurring. My BS radar goes off constantly at some of the alarmist predictions like you. The thing is that not all scientists agree on the effects of global warming. Likewise not everyone that believes that global warming (or climate change) is occurring believes that sea levels are going to rise by a zillion meters or that superstorms will start occurring often. I am quite concerned that temps have risen so much in such a little time though.

One thing about fossil fuels that I can easily see after living in Taiwan (it is worse in China) is that burning them creates some horrifically dirty air and that dirty air is proven to cause health problems. But not all fossil fuel emissions are equal. China stop burning coal (now).

The biggest thing is that just because one scientist (or someone that things they are a scientist or #$%$#%$#% Al Gore) said something once doesn’t mean that science agreed with them.

Have they? I don’t see that. I see a lot of “adjusted” temperature readings. I see a lot of “forecasts” that are “modeled” to indicate temperature increases. I see a lot of people all over the world waiting at the trough. Whether for hunger, refugees, climate change, social justice… you name it. There are a lot of people who depend on these funds to pay their mortgages in London, New York and DC.

But now instead of “Think of the Children,” we have “Think of the Planet.” Clearly that is a much better “new and improved!!!” version, surely? Although I have to say, the Simpsons seemed to get the muddleheaded
emotionalism about right: youtube.com/watch?v=RybNI0KB1bg

[quote]Logical fallacy[edit]
In their 2002 book, Art, Argument, and Advocacy: Mastering Parliamentary Debate, John Meany and Kate Shuster called the use of the phrase “Think of the children” in debate a type of logical fallacy and an appeal to emotion.[1] According to the authors, a debater may use the phrase to emotionally sway members of the audience and avoid logical discussion.[1] They provide an example: “I know this national missile defense plan has its detractors, but won’t someone please think of the children?”[1] Their assessment was echoed by Margie Borschke in an article for the journal Media International Australia incorporating Culture and Policy, with Borschke calling its use a rhetorical tactic.[3]

Ethicist Jack Marshall described “Think of the children!” as a tactic used in an attempt to end discussion by invoking an unanswerable argument.[2] According to Marshall, the strategy succeeds in preventing rational debate.[2] He called its use an unethical manner of obfuscating debate, misdirecting empathy towards an object which may not have been the focus of the original argument.[2] Marshall wrote that although the phrase’s use may have a positive intention, it evokes irrationality when repeatedly used by both sides of a debate.[2] He concluded that the phrase can transform the observance of regulations into an ethical quandary, cautioning society to avoid using “Think of the children!” as a final argument.[2]

In his 2015 syndicated article “Think Of The Children”, Michael Reagan criticized the phrase’s use by politicians.[27] According to Reagan, politicians needed to stop using children as tools when arguing for favored governmental programs.[27] He called the tactic an illogical argument, an act of desperation by those who felt they had a weaker case with reason-based arguments.[27] Noting that it has been used by Democrats and Republicans alike in the United States,[27] Reagan called the tactic “obvious political BS”.[27]

Moral panic[edit]
File:2015 Think of the Children by Mia Love.ogv
The phrase, used by Congresswoman Mia Love
The Journal for Cultural Research published an article in 2010 by Debra Ferreday,[28] which was republished in the 2011 book Hope and Feminist Theory.[9] According to Ferreday, media use of “Won’t someone think of the children!” had become common in a climate of moral panic.[9] She suggested that the phrase was becoming so common that it could become another Godwin’s law.[9]

In a 2011 article for the journal Post Script, Andrew Scahill wrote about the power of children in rhetoric to create an untenable stance for an opposing viewpoint.[29] According to Scahill, an individual arguing “for the children” makes it extremely difficult for an opponent to hold a “not for the children” position.[29] Cassandra Wilkinson discussed the impact of “think of the children” rhetoric in a 2011 article for IPA Review.[30] Wilkinson cited research by No Fear: Growing Up in a Risk-Averse Society author Tim Gill that hypersensitivity in defending children from potential harm has the adverse effect of contributing to the inability of youth to own their choices and react to dangerous situations.[31] In the New Statesman, Laurie Penny characterized the tactic as a political belief system and called it “think-of-the-children-ism”.[19]

Elizabeth Stoker Bruenig wrote in a 2014 article for First Things that moralizing with the phrase was commonly seen in discussions of sexuality,[20] attributing this to society’s increasing perception of morality as a feminine domain.[20] Bruenig also cited the labeling of NBC’s refusal to broadcast a movie trailer about abortion as “think-of-the-children-ism”.[20]

Censorship[edit]
Scott Beattie wrote in his 2009 book, Community, Space and Online Censorship, that the question “Will no one think of the children?” was often raised by individuals advocating censorship out of a concern that youth might view material deemed inappropriate.[7] According to Beattie, youngsters were cast as potential casualties of online sexual predators to increase regulation of the Internet; characterizing children as infantile evoked a concept of innocence which was a form of obsession over the concept of purity.[7]

For Make magazine, Cory Doctorow wrote in a 2011 article that “Won’t someone think of the children?!” was used by irrational individuals to support arguments about the dangers to youth of the “Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse”: “pirates”, terrorists, organized crime, and child pornographers.[32] According to Doctorow, the phrase was used to stifle discussion of underlying issues and halt rational analysis.[32] He observed its frequent use when society was determining an appropriate approach to the legal aspects of computing.[32]

In his 2013 book, Fervid Filmmaking, Mike Watt discussed the history of censorship relative to the United Kingdom’s Obscene Publications Act 1959 and noted that films banned during that period became known as “video nasties”.[33] Watt called a current interpretation of such censorship the “Think of the Children” characterization.[33] Brian M. Reed wrote in his book, Nobody’s Business (also published that year), that the phrase was devoid of substance and could be replaced for comic effect with “How many kittens must die?”[34]

For Reason in 2015, journalist Brendan O’Neill wrote that Marjorie Heins’ Not in Front of the Children: Indecency, Censorship, and the Innocence of Youth cited the centuries-long use by governments of the prevention of “harm to minors” as an excuse to increase censorship and control.[35] According to O’Neill, the use of “Won’t somebody please think of the children?” in contemporary culture had greatly increased and was a means of exerting moral authority with emotional blackmail.[35][/quote]

You don’t see it? Well nobody “sees” it, but we can certainly measure it :slight_smile: If you’re not concerned with the rise in atmospheric CO2 levels, or rising ocean temperatures, receding glaciers, increases in species extinctions, changing weather patterns, etc etc… If you’re not concerned with those things, are you at the very least concerned with this?

Can we find some middle ground that at the very least, we are rapidly affecting our breathable air? Even if that had zero negative effect on the planet, I sure hope you can at least acknowledge that it has a dramatic effect on the species that live here and require a breath of oxygen every now and then.

Yes, we have measured the concentrations of CO2 in the air but we have not correlated the exact effects of this increase on a warming world.

worth keeping an eye on.

open to some very severe disputes.

Except when they are growing? or not disappearing like as in the ski-free Alps? the glacier-free Himalayas by 2030?

Another bullshit measure. Minor variations in flies and tree frogs do not individualized species make. This is another example of ginned up “alarm.”

The weather has been changing for quite some time without any effect from you or me. Ask the Sahara.

carbon dioxide is NOT a pollutant. It is not harmful to health.

Air quality throughout much of the West/developed world is far better than it has been for maybe 500 years. No wood fires… No coal fired plants…

And, there it is ladies and gentlemen, the “But what about the children?” quote. You have lost and now turn to emotionalism. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. “Breathing oxygen” is very possible throughout all of the developed world. Want to improve people’s ability to breathe oxygen in the developing world? Give them more development so they stop burning coal, wood for fires. That simple. IF you REALLY do care about the children and don’t we all? :unamused: then you should be against the measures proposed by global warming (SORRY!!! CLIMATE CHANGE!!!) alarmists.

Have they? I don’t see that. I see a lot of “adjusted” temperature readings. I see a lot of “forecasts” that are “modeled” to indicate temperature increases. I see a lot of people all over the world waiting at the trough. Whether for hunger, refugees, climate change, social justice… you name it. There are a lot of people who depend on these funds to pay their mortgages in London, New York and DC.
[/quote]

You were the one that said ‘Warmer, Yup so?’.

There should be more than enough data (not adjusted temps) to say that the global temps are rising. This should not even be debatable.

The rest of your points are open to debate. What is the cause? What will happen? What can we do? Is it in our best interests to do anything?

In addition to that it should not even be debatable that Taiwan has dangerously dirty air and much of Asia does as well.

Finally!
Someone got his fingers back on the keyboard.

What took you so long?

Yup. So?

[quote]There should be more than enough data (not adjusted temps) to say that the global temps are rising. This should not even be debatable.
[/quote]

I was not debating warming. I was debating lots of warming in a very short period of time. I don’t agree that this is what is happening… not without “reconstituted” or “reformulated” or “reweighted” temperature data.

[quote]The rest of your points are open to debate. What is the cause? What will happen? What can we do? Is it in our best interests to do anything?
[/quote]
And there it is. The political dimension. What to do about it? Well, I personally think that we should continue to funnel tens of billions of dollars to “raising awareness” with tens of billions of more for “research into the phenomenon” and oh maybe tens of billions more to hold conferences to discuss how to “take action,” while issuing “reports” on “what we are doing.”

But… Taiwan’s air is now far cleaner than it was 10 years ago, even more so than 20 years ago and much cleaner than 40 years ago. What accounts for this improvement. DEVELOPMENT. MORE not less.

[quote=“fred smith”]
But… Taiwan’s air is now far cleaner than it was 10 years ago, even more so than 20 years ago and much cleaner than 40 years ago. What accounts for this improvement. DEVELOPMENT. MORE not less.[/quote]
Perfectly correct statement!
More development in alternative energy, transportation and production lines.
I hope you did not mean selling 1000 000 000 SUVs to the new rich when you said development.

[quote]Perfectly correct statement!
More development in alternative energy, transportation and production lines.
I hope you did not mean selling 1000 000 000 SUVs to the new rich when you said development.[/quote]

Never thought about (whatever number you have provided) SUVs… but now that you mention it… the air seems to be getting better and that may be because there are no VWs in Taiwan. OF COURSE, I, too, believe Matthias Muller when he says he didn’t know… or was it that he was only following orders or…

That is absolutely priceless. Fred Smith complaining about wasting money raising awareness, completely ignoring the fact that the only reason we have to “raise awareness” in the first place is because people like him are so unaware. That was classic :roflmao:

So essentially your argument is, don’t waste money convincing scientifically illiterate people like you, because you will always remain scientifically illiterate regardless of any efforts to help you understand the basic shit most of the rest of the world takes as common sense. Dumb will remain dumb, don’t waste time and money on it? Got it :thumbsup:

Yup. So?

[quote]There should be more than enough data (not adjusted temps) to say that the global temps are rising. This should not even be debatable.
[/quote]

I was not debating warming. I was debating lots of warming in a very short period of time. I don’t agree that this is what is happening… not without “reconstituted” or “reformulated” or “reweighted” temperature data.

[quote]The rest of your points are open to debate. What is the cause? What will happen? What can we do? Is it in our best interests to do anything?
[/quote]
And there it is. The political dimension. What to do about it? Well, I personally think that we should continue to funnel tens of billions of dollars to “raising awareness” with tens of billions of more for “research into the phenomenon” and oh maybe tens of billions more to hold conferences to discuss how to “take action,” while issuing “reports” on “what we are doing.”

But… Taiwan’s air is now far cleaner than it was 10 years ago, even more so than 20 years ago and much cleaner than 40 years ago. What accounts for this improvement. DEVELOPMENT. MORE not less.[/quote]

Temperatures have risen considerably in the last 20-30 years. That is enough of a sample size to be more than relevant and far more relevant than the idiotic 5 day sample of cold weather that prompted this thread. But I still consider that a short period of time in the global climate scale.

You have to be joking about Taiwan’s dirty air. Or clueless. I know that you aren’t joking about Taiwan’s air being considerably cleaner than it was 10, 20 and 40 years ago but rather the reason why. It isn’t development. It is because these environmental ‘wackos’ or ‘alarmists’ had to push unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, the end of 2 stroke engines, cleaner coal, better coal emissions capture (and ultimately less coal) and dozens of other clean air and environmental standards onto the equivalent version of Fred Smith and Rowland of 30+ years ago. And that version made the same denials (it isn’t a problem, it’s too expensive, but I don’t want to) that you are making now. That is how the air was cleaned up to a better but not yet clean standard.