So is Taiwan a Developed country or not?

blue: I’d be inclined to say that some parts of Europe are moving backwards right now. You won’t get an argument out of me about that.

Despite all of Taiwan’s flaws, I would choose Taiwan over Europe for two very simple reasons - The people are generally nicer and there is less crime.

I don’t walk around London ‘fearing for my safety’, either. I’m certainly safer here, where I understand the nuances of language and social behaviour, in any case. Doesn’t Taiwan have a huge murder rate?

Expats tend to be a bit drama-queeny about this issue - I know - I used to be. It’s really OK here.

blue: If I had more money (i.e. I were independently wealthy) or had the actual possibility of living in certain European countries (maybe I should become an Islamist radical and they’ll give me citizenship tomorrow) and being able to save the kind of money I do now, I would. It would be a complete no-brainer, especially if I had children. The Taiwanese education system is really backward, and the Taiwanese work/life balance is completely out. It’s so at odds with actually having children and spending quality time with them. Several countries in Europe, notably the Nordic countries, are extremely child-friendly.

You have different circumstances, racially speaking, but I have always found people of the Nordic countries, as well as several other European nationalities, to be extremely friendly and I think they’d be much better to work with or for than Taiwanese.

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]blue: If I had more money (i.e. I were independently wealthy) or had the actual possibility of living in certain European countries (maybe I should become an Islamist radical and they’ll give me citizenship tomorrow) and being able to save the kind of money I do now, I would. It would be a complete no-brainer, especially if I had children. The Taiwanese education system is really backward, and the Taiwanese work/life balance is completely out. It’s so at odds with actually having children and spending quality time with them. Several countries in Europe, notably the Nordic countries, are extremely child-friendly.

You have different circumstances, racially speaking, but I have always found people of the Nordic countries, as well as several other European nationalities, to be extremely friendly and I think they’d be much better to work with or for than Taiwanese.[/quote]

Hi yes, I have heard the best part of Europe is in the Nordic region - Sweden, Finland, Norway etc.

Actually, the best part of the Nordic region is Rhodos during winter months. :slight_smile: Swedes in the sun.

[quote=“Buttercup”]I don’t walk around London ‘fearing for my safety’, either. I’m certainly safer here, where I understand the nuances of language and social behaviour, in any case. Doesn’t Taiwan have a huge murder rate?

Expats tend to be a bit drama-queeny about this issue - I know - I used to be. It’s really OK here.[/quote]

My best friend is still in London, he has been there for almost 10 years now. He is Indonesian Chinese and speaks with a rather noticeable accent by the way.

In the past 6 months, he has had his house window broken by some punk who threw a stone at it, his motocycle (or was it his car) torn apart by crims (he told me his insurance covered it so he was lucky)and has an altercation with some romanians teens where a knife was flashed at him (they were making a lot of noise at night and he went to ask them to stop).

There are a lot more stories, 10 years worth if you are interested in it. :slight_smile:

Not interested. This thread is about Taiwan.

I’m British. I’ve lived in Chelsea, Cheshire, Glasgow, Oxford and some of the worst parts of Manchester. Sorry to be a snob, but stuff like that is poor person, inner city London stuff. Simply doesn’t happen to the majority.

Always good to meet a foreign expert on my country / continent, though!

profound :bravo:

In many ways Taiwan is overdeveloped as are many other parts of the world.

Unless your car is a scooter, then it’s in danger of being stolen. Bicycles, too, are at high risk of being stolen. People deface their own scooters with spray paint to make them less attractive to thieves.

And you are safe to walk, unless you cross a street. Then you take your life in your own hands.

As for homes, several units on the first floor in my community in Xindian have been broken into. Further, The metal handrails in the stairwells are regularly stolen for sale to scrap metal places. Even light bulbs in the elevators and hallways come up missing. If burglary is so non-existent, then why do so many homes have bars over the windows, especially those on the first and second floors?

There are unique “challenges” to every place I’ve ever lived or visited.

I don’t think the OP was placing any value judgment on in. Some economies are developed and some aren’t. What’s so offensive in discussing it?

[quote=“Buttercup”]I’m British. I’ve lived in Chelsea, Cheshire, Glasgow, Oxford and some of the worst parts of Manchester. Sorry to be a snob, but stuff like that is poor person, inner city London stuff. Simply doesn’t happen to the majority.

Always good to meet a foreign expert on my country / continent, though![/quote]

I also feel generally safer in the UK, at least here in Hertfordshire. However crime here is not “poor person, inner city London stuff”. Almost everyone I know here has been the victim of crime, albeit mainly of a non-violent nature. Most of the violent crime here is alcohol related, so if you stay away from town centre pubs at closing time you are significantly cutting down your risk of being involved.

My grandmother, in the suburbs, had her house (a very modest maisonette) broken into three times. My parents’ house was broken into twice. I had my car stolen from the University halls of residence in Nottingham, and the teenager thieves had the audacity to leave it in the police station car park ! There’s some unnecessary aggressiveness here on the roads, although compared to Taiwan it’s a veritable paradise to drive, walk, cycle or push the baby stroller here.

I would think that the UK has a higher per capita crime rate. But all in all, I feel safer than I would in Taiwan in that if anything happens, I know that there is a reasonably functioning law and order system here to protect me, rather than the facade of a law and order system that exists in Taiwan.

There is a law and order system in UK which clearly does not work well. There is not much of a law and order system in Taiwan yet incidences of crime including violence and vandalism must be a factor lower. I think it is your own perception that is important here.

Despite all of Taiwan’s flaws, I would choose Taiwan over Europe for two very simple reasons - The people are generally nicer and there is less crime.[/quote]

What is ‘Europe’ …ridiculous idea. I can tell you for a fact that most Irish/Northern British are friendlier than the average Taiwanese. But Taiwanese in general are friendly at heart too, just don’t have the social and language skills and are often under pressure.

[quote=“CraigTPE”]

I don’t think the OP was placing any value judgment on in. Some economies are developed and some aren’t. What’s so offensive in discussing it?[/quote]

Nothing offensive about, but it’s a huge waste of time and energy. People should be concerned about individual indicators - life expectancy, infant mortality, how many families can’t afford to pay for their kids’ education even when it’s cheap (something in which Taiwan scores badly at the moment) - than devising systems which gather all of these variables together and attach weights to them so some kind of ‘league table’ can be drawn up. It’s like combining a poll of critics and box-office takings to find out ‘the best movies of all time.’

What do you mean Taiwanese don’t have social or language skills? Of course they do.

Or do you mean most foreigners in Taiwan don’t speak Chinese well enough to hold meaningful conversations here and expect Taiwanese to be able to converse in a a foriegn language?

[quote=“pgdaddy”][quote=“Buttercup”]I’m British. I’ve lived in Chelsea, Cheshire, Glasgow, Oxford and some of the worst parts of Manchester. Sorry to be a snob, but stuff like that is poor person, inner city London stuff. Simply doesn’t happen to the majority.

Always good to meet a foreign expert on my country / continent, though![/quote]

I also feel generally safer in the UK, at least here in Hertfordshire. However crime here is not “poor person, inner city London stuff”. Almost everyone I know here has been the victim of crime, albeit mainly of a non-violent nature. Most of the violent crime here is alcohol related, so if you stay away from town centre pubs at closing time you are significantly cutting down your risk of being involved.

My grandmother, in the suburbs, had her house (a very modest maisonette) broken into three times. My parents’ house was broken into twice. I had my car stolen from the University halls of residence in Nottingham, and the teenager thieves had the audacity to leave it in the police station car park ! There’s some unnecessary aggressiveness here on the roads, although compared to Taiwan it’s a veritable paradise to drive, walk, cycle or push the baby stroller here.

I would think that the UK has a higher per capita crime rate. But all in all, I feel safer than I would in Taiwan in that if anything happens, I know that there is a reasonably functioning law and order system here to protect me, rather than the facade of a law and order system that exists in Taiwan.[/quote]

I am not so sure about the law and order aka penal system there. Light sentences, serve half of it and you can go out on tag. “Prisons” with swimming pools, gyms, PSPs, dvds, avon catalogue shopping, pool tables, free degrees, personal TV set to watch, day release back home and of course lots of tea…very cushy…wouldn’t mind staying in one of the open ones for a while …nice place to chill and relax on taxpayers’ money.

[quote=“blueeee11”]

I am not so sure about the law and order aka penal system there. Light sentences, serve half of it and you can go out on tag. “Prisons” with swimming pools, gyms, PSPs, dvds, avon catalogue shopping, pool tables, free degrees, personal TV set to watch, day release back home and of course lots of tea…very cushy…wouldn’t mind staying in one of the open ones for a while …nice place to chill and relax on taxpayers’ money.[/quote]

Maybe one day, as East Asian countries become developed, they will have prisons as good as ours.

[quote=“tomthorne”][quote=“blueeee11”]

I am not so sure about the law and order aka penal system there. Light sentences, serve half of it and you can go out on tag. “Prisons” with swimming pools, gyms, PSPs, dvds, avon catalogue shopping, pool tables, free degrees, personal TV set to watch, day release back home and of course lots of tea…very cushy…wouldn’t mind staying in one of the open ones for a while …nice place to chill and relax on taxpayers’ money.[/quote]

Maybe one day, as East Asian countries become developed, they will have prisons as good as ours.[/quote]

I am not too sure about that man lol…I think the Japanese/HK penal system is the most ideal.

There are a lot of “developed” Asian countries actually.

Japan gdp per capita (nominal) ~38k? Very developed and it is the second largest economy in the world. Probably the most developed Country in Asia.

Singapore gdp per capita (nominal) ~38k?. Gdp per capita (PPP) 51k, 4th highest in the world. Developed economically.

Hong kong, Macau both gdp per capita (nominal) ~30k.

Korea, TW both gdp per capita (nominal) ~ 20k?

It is just that Asian countries are slower to take up “liberal democracy” and “human rights”. Certain western countries are faster than their Asian counterparts in making “human rights” & “liberal democracy” part of their society.

[quote]
But in Taiwan you can walk around without fearing for your safety. Your house and cars are safe. This is not the case in some areas of Europe such as London.[/quote]

Bike scratched several times and dented to the point that I can’t be bothered to keep fixing it.
Kayak stolen
Camera stolen
Wallet stolen
Phone stolen
Car scratched and wiper pulled off.
Saw a taxi driver pull somone else’s wiper off a couple of months ago.
Paint poured on car.
Saved lady from having her handbag snatched at knifepoint in an alley.
Caught thief in the act of trying to force open scooter seat.
Witnessed someone running after someone else with a gun in Chang Hua.
Witnessed someone slash someone else’s arm in Kaohsiung. Severed artery.
Got punched in the chest by a cop in Kaohsiung for not wearing a helmet when riding my scooter to cross the road.

The most that’s happened to me back home: I got lightly beaten up once and had my car mirror kicked off as a group of drunken youths walked down the street.

I think Taiwan is developed to a degree, but the minds of the Taiwanese haven’t caught up. It matters not how much people earn, how good the transport system or healthcare is - I’m sorry, but the majority of Taiwanese people live like pigs and treat the environment they live in with contempt. The way they treat each other on the road, on the street or in any situation which requires contact with strangers and the “me first” policy comes into effect.
It’s dirty. The cities stink. The people are often only interested in you until the novelty foreigner value wears off. The government actively puts peoples’ lives in danger with its stupid land use policies and no matter how much they earn, most people live in a dirty, brightly lit box with minimal furnishings, no heating in the winter and with surround - sound ‘other people’s TV volume.’ ‘teenager off-note piano practice’ and ‘old person back-of-the-throat phlegm production’ noises.

Any country that needs to employ security guards at level crossings in order to stop people from crossing the track when the barriers are down does not strike me as developed.

Of course, I’m generalising here, but as day to day business goes, this is what Taiwan looks like to me.