This is an interesting speech the president of Venezuela Hugo Ch
Wow.
I had no idea that this guy was so dangerously arrogant and power-hungry. For the sake of the Venezuelan people I suppose we can just hope that he doesn’t really believe most of the things he says (or that he will not be able to amass enough power to allow him to inflict the kind of suffering on his people that it sounds like he would like to). 
I do not have the link at immediate hand, however, I do believe I read an article today that Chavez announced that he will be moving towards close Venezuelan governmental relations with the FARC narcoterrorists in Columbia. Safe haven, r&r areas and all that.
Quite a lovely pickle this is turning into.
Good thing this guy has Jeemy Carters official stamp of approval.
I never paid much attention to Chavez before. I never realized that he was such a fruitcake.
Sounds like a good idea to me. Better late than never. Good luck to them.
Couldn’t agree more.
I agree with this as well. Sadly, it really sounds like they are going to need it… :s
Surprise Surprise. Chavez showing his true colors. Like no one in the Bush administration has been saying that Chavez was and is trouble? Good thing though that Jimmy Carter has given his stamp of approval to the “election.” We all know how much Jimmy Carter is respected in Latin America. You can tell someone by the company they keep. We have Carter with Kim, Castro and Chavez… Draw your own conclusions.
But the U.S. backed the coup in Venezuela, no?
Any proof that the US backed any coup attempt in Venezuela and remember that the former US president Jimmy Carter went down and sanctioned the last election even though he was never given the access needed to any of the polling stations that should have been required. Chavez is a thug and a fool. I simply do not understand why Latin America has to throw out these tired populists every 20 years or so to bring ruin to the country’s they rule. Now, please explain to me why any president would cozy up to Castro in Cuba. Is Cuba a democracy? Does it respect human rights? Does it have economic, political or social successes that would be a good role model for other countries as they seek to develop? Cuba has one of the worst human-rights records in the hemisphere and would be consistently the worst if it did not have that other shining success story Haiti to compete with.
Can I see a link for Cuba’s human rights record you speak of?
Can you post a similar one for the U.S.?
Does the U.S. have a better human rights record than Cuba?
Why was the U.S. kicked off the U.N. human rights commission?
Define democracy.
Did Cuba have ‘democracy’ before Castro?
Did everyone have education before Castro, when U.S. backed Batista was in control? Health care? Housing?
Do they have those basic human rights now?
Where did all the money go when Batista was in power?
Where does it go now?
Who is committing the worst human rights abuses on Cuban soil?
Which country is depriving the Cuban people of the medicine and food that they need?
Which country has 12 percent of its population living below the poverty line despite its claims to be the greatest economy in the world?
Which country has the greatest literacy rate and the lowest infant mortality rate of the two?
Is Chavez really a thug and a fool for giving the land back to the Venezualans?
Just a few questions so I can understand this situation better. I’m not anti-U.S.
And why would a president of a Latin American country cosy up to Castro? I’m guessing because he would want to learn how to stop the U.S. invading his country and turning it into a fruit company.
Respectfully to all those with different opinions to mine,
Stray Dog
Stray Dog:
Will answer these questions after lunch.
I am always curious though about the kind of people who would post such statements. Where did you go to school and what did you study if you do not mind my asking.
Are you questioning my intelligence because I have an opinion different to yours?
BTW, which statements are you referring to?
Here ya go…
[quote]1 Finland 0,50
– Iceland 0,50
– Norway 0,50
– Netherlands 0,50
5 Canada 0,75
6 Ireland 1,00
7 Germany 1,50
– Portugal 1,50
– Sweden 1,50
10 Denmark 3,00
11 France 3,25
12 Australia 3,50
— Belgium 3,50
14 Slovenia 4,00
15 Costa Rica 4,25
— Switzerland 4,25
17 United States 4,75
134 Cuba 90,25
135 Bhutan 90,75
136 Turkmenistan 91,50
137 Burma 96,83
138 China 97,00
139 North Korea 97,50 [/quote]
photius.com/rankings/press_f … index.html
See above
Here we have Freedom House’s 2005 rankings. The US scores 1 in terms of political rights and 1 in terms of civil liberties, the highest possible score in both categories while Cuba scores 7s in both, the lowest possible score.
freedomhouse.org/research/fr … le2005.pdf
Look at who remained on the commission and ask yourself if Sudan, Syria, Libya and others including Zimbabwe are the kind of human rights commission that a civilized nation would like to participate in.
Look it up in the dictionary yourself, but given the above variables both for press freedom and for the political and civil liberties that are important parts of human rights, then I think that you already have a pretty good comparison of the difference between Cuba and The US.
No, but Castro is even worse.
No and if you have seen what passes for education and housing in Cuba today. Don’t even get me started on medical care. Then you would see that Cuba is not much better off. It was a relatively prosperous country before Castro. We cannot therefore compare Castro in 2005 with Batista in 1959. Cuba would have progressed along with the rest of Latin America regardless of who was in charge. We cannot therefore compare medical, educational and standard of living issues between 1959 and 2005. Let’s look where Costa Rica is today. I would argue that Cuba was a similar type nation before the revolution. Which is better off?
See above. US highest scores. Cuba lowest. Understand?
No I am questioning your intelligence because you seem to be equating the US with Cuba with nary an inkling of the difference in freedom and civil rights between the two.
When you start asking what democracy is then I am sorry but yes, I would have to question your intelligence especially if you are about to launch into a tirade about how the US is not really a democracy but Cuba is because of some sort of misperceived, government propaganda on “social justice.”
So let me be clear. I am questioning your intelligence but I am also very curious to know which university or college you went to and what you studied because I want to better understand where this type of brainwashing that you “seem” to exemplify is coming from. I want to understand this better in order to be able to fight against this kind of “education” being propagated further in the US. I hope your parents did not spend too much on this.
Also, you can see from this report that the US scores #8 in terms of global human development while Cuba is 52. Now, that would appear to be quite a good score for Cuba right? BUT these figures are not independently verified. ALSO, the US poverity rate is based on US statistics of what is poverty. These figures are not the same everywhere in the world. Ergo the entire population of Cuba would be below the poverty line if using US statistics. Again, all these figures are supplied by the governments in question. There is no independent verification of figures given by Cuban authoriteis.
hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2004 … 04_HDI.pdf
You got that right – for a change. Fair, comprehensive, lucid. Are you sure you’re Fred Smith?
Now spookster:
Stop trying to get on my good side. It is working.
See you back in the trenches regarding reforming the Middle East though.
I really have to wonder what we are doing educating our college graduates to come away with such a poor understanding of what political freedom and civil liberties are all about. When there is such confusion how can there but be such moral equivalence.
Here we have Freedom House’s 2005 rankings. The US scores 1 in terms of political rights and 1 in terms of civil liberties, the highest possible score in both categories while Cuba scores 7s in both, the lowest possible score.
freedomhouse.org/research/fr … le2005.pdf[/quote]
Do you know who funds Freedom House? The U.S. Department of State. 
Do you have anything more independent? If you look at the country reports within any human rights Web site, you will see that the U.S. abuses far outnumber and outweigh those of Cuba. Try looking beyond freedom of press.
Look at who remained on the commission and ask yourself if Sudan, Syria, Libya and others including Zimbabwe are the kind of human rights commission that a civilized nation would like to participate in. [/quote]
Can you answer the question or not?
The reason I asked you to define democracy is because the term is often used as a screen for opening up a country to outside control.
No, but Castro is even worse. [/quote]
Well argued! :bravo: How?
No and if you have seen what passes for education and housing in Cuba today. Don’t even get me started on medical care. Then you would see that Cuba is not much better off.[/quote]
I’d like you to get started on medical care. By all accounts, Cuban medical care is the envy of Latin America. Cuba also boasts the highest doctor to patient ratio in the world. Not bad, I’d say.
At least you agree that Cuba is better off now.
I can’t argue with speculation.
Swiss bank accounts? How do I know?[/quote]
You could look it up. It went to corrupt officials, the mafia, and, as many of the most successful businesses were U.S. owned, out of the country.
same places no doubt but Castro is estimated to be one of the richest men in the world with a fortune in the hundreds of millions of dollars to perhaps even close to a billion. Interesting? [/quote]
Very! The Forbes estimate of Castro’s wealth included all state-owned businesses. :loco: Do you have a more independent estimation?
Castro. There are only 500 people (detainees) left in Guantanamo and they are accorded food, medical care, access to religious instruction and guidance. The abuses there have been exaggerated for political reasons. If you do not believe this to be true, then please supply evidence that the detainees are more numerous or worse off then those rotting in Castro’s jails. [/quote]
“The abuses there have been exaggerated for political reasons.” Your source?
You can compare the Amnesty reports on Guantanamo detainees and those in Cuban jails. (I couldn’t find anything on Amnesty’s Web site about the conditions in Cuban jails, but I could have missed it - I’m being honest.) If you want to compare numbers, why don’t you include the number of incarcerated individuals in the States, and their conditions, which are all well-documented and condemned by human rights groups?
No one. The US has an embargo against Cuba but any other nation in the world can trade with Cuba if it so desires. Given this situation, Cuba is free to buy whatever it wants from Europe, Asia, Russia, China, you name it. [/quote]
The American Association for World Health said otherwise. The U.S. patents the vast majority of medicinal drugs, and blocks their sale to Cuba. It costs Cuba four times as much to buy the drugs elsewhere. Interesting note about human rights at the bottom of that report.
That would be the United States, but define poverty. Clearly, the “poverty” in the US cannot be compared with that in other countries. This figure is political and is hiked to ensure continued monies flow to parties with vested interests in running programs to alleviate such “poverty.” Given that “poverty” in the US means having a house or government furnished apartment, running water, stove, TV, toilet, microwave, etc. etc. then you should really look at those figures again. Clearly all poverties are not equal. [/quote]
And you’d be very wise not to compare poverty in the States with that of other countries. Remember, the poor in Cuba have access to health care, housing, and education. I’ve just finished reading a book that was damning of the situation in Cuba, but even in that the poorest people in Cuba were described as having most of the ‘neccessities’ you listed above.
We simply have no way of knowing. Cuba, like the Sandinistas, makes much of its medical care and literacy figures but they have never been independently verified. We are presented with government figures and asked to accept them. Please see press freedom index above and then ponder the accuracy of such Cuban government statistics. [/quote]
I got my figures from the CIA World Factbook 2005, but if you say it’s not to be trusted …
Please supply further information on what you are discussing. What land has been returned. And was this land not taken from other Venezuelans? Should there not be due process and should not property rights be respected? I will await further details on this subject from you since I have no idea what you are talking about. [/quote]
Search ‘Chavez land grab’ for an idea. The land was taken from wealthier Venezualans, yes, among others; with a poverty rate of 47 percent, it would seem like a good idea to start redistributing the land. I acknowledge we could disagree on the outcome of such an act, but there it is. Due process only works if all parties employ it, no?
No, but you would appear to be trotting out the same tired neo-Marxist principles that have brought so much despair and disaster to the world without seeming to really understand the realities of the regimes which you seem to be defending.[/quote]
I have no idea what a neo-Marxist is; I align myself with no political group or movement. I’m just asking about something I feel is unfair.
why is Chavez afraid that the US will invade? How many other countries in Latin America besides Cuba are afraid that the US will invade? Why would the US invade Venezuela? Which countries have been turned into fruit companies by America or American interests? [/quote]
Chavez says the United States was behind the failed coup to overthrow him. Read it here.
I don’t know how many countries are afraid of a U.S. invasion. The U.S. wouldn’t overtly invade. They would just put a puppet govt in (in my opinion). Fruit company countries? Search “United Fruit Company” - but I think you know what I’m talking about.
Enjoying the debate! 
Try to keep it a little less hostile, though, OK? It’s OK to disagree.
[quote=“Stray Dog”]Enjoying the debate!
Try to keep it a little less hostile, though, OK? It’s OK to disagree.[/quote]
Absolutely excellent post Stray Dog. 
I’m not talking about the positions you take necessarily (I don’t know enough about Cuba to take part in this one – but my guess is that I would probably find myself closer to Fred’s take on most of these issues 
).
I’m just talking about your style of debate. Cogent points, effective use of sources to support your position, confident yet respectful/friendly tone. All outstanding.
I hope we can look forward to many more posts from you here on the International Politics Forum! 
Cheers,
Oh Christ… WE have a TRUE believer don’t we…
Stray Dog. It is late tonight and I will get back to you tomorrow, but Cuban medical statistics, and all those wonderful figures that you show regarding education,medical care and housing are all Cuban Government figures and not independently verified.
Let me ask you three questions while I prepare to answer your questions:
- Where did you go to college and what did you study?
- Have you ever travelled? to Latin America?
- What do you know of the UN and how it works?
Sorry you don’t accept US government sites, I aint’ accepting your post if based on what Chavez says. What’s fair is fair.
No dice.