Sold my MC, Had Enough Close Calls

Life Cars & Motorcycles
21

You’ll have to clarify this statement. If I’m understanding this correctly, you’ve never had anyone cut you off? Even if you’re the safest, most aware driver in the world, you’ll still get cut off half a dozen times a day in any city or highway.

As the above poster noted, numerous people simply don’t look when entering the main streets from sidestreet and alleys, from behind parked cars or simply joining traffic from the side of the road in clear view. Very few Taiwanese look left over their shoulder and that accounts for most of the close calls.

I had my worst close calls from people who did wide U-turns across four lanes of wide, rural highway and they don’t take the scooter lane into consideration. The front end of their cars always poked into the scooter lane/shoulder as they were doing their no-look U-turns, making everyone stop suddenly until they finished their inept, dangerous driving. I had it happen in front of me at least twice in two weeks while I was driving 80-90 k/mh on a highway between cities, and I was very familiar with the route.

So to say you’ve never had a close call after two years of driving thousands of km in Taiwan is impossible. I don’t doubt that you are a safe, conscientious driver. It’s the other guy you have no control over.[/quote]
20 years without a close call for me. Riding 50km every day more or less. Only close calls I’ve had have been through me running myself off the road.
You also forgot to quote Llary’s “learn from your mistakes.”
It’s not a close call if you’re anticipating the other driver. It’s how you ride in these conditions. If you fail to do this, you’ll come a cropper more than likely. I have people try to cut me off every day too, along with all other manner of the nuttiness they perpetrate. But they’re not close calls because I know what they’re going to do before they’ve thought of it themselves. Stay alive.
This was all taught to me when I first learned to ride around 35 years ago – it’s not exclusive to Taiwan but anywhere where you’re on the roads in a vulnerable situation. Although there’s a far higher incidence of poor road-using here, for sure. But preemptive avoidance/anticipation is standard riding technique anywhere and it was second nature for me many years before I started riding in Taiwan. It should also be second nature at any speed. 20mph on a wee Honda or 140mph on a Laverda Jota, shouldn’t really make any difference.

22

You’ll have to clarify this statement. If I’m understanding this correctly, you’ve never had anyone cut you off? Even if you’re the safest, most aware driver in the world, you’ll still get cut off half a dozen times a day in any city or highway.[/quote]

It means that I have not had any close calls in over two years. No situation where you would say, ‘shit, that was close’.

So I ride in series with cars, not parallel alongside them. I never ride in the rightmost scooter lane, I try to keep at least a 3 second gap all around or 4-5 seconds on the expressways. If someone does pull out in front of me, so what? I have plenty of space to brake.

Again, I don’t want to come off as judgemental, but I am just going to state a fact based on experience and training. 90km/h is too fast to be riding a farmer bike in the rightmost lane of a rural highway. There is just zero visibility of alleys on your right hand side and lots of slippery gravel patches. At 50km/h your official stopping distance is 23m and probably more on this kind of bike. At 90km/h it’s something like 60m, more than double. A close call at 90km/h could have been an easy save at 60 or even 50.

Those rural highways are deadly, much worse than any inner city traffic because of the trucks, gravel and fast driving. They are also very tempting to blast at high speed. I would just try to avoid them if at all possible, otherwise stick to daylight riding, keep it slow and stay alert.

I dunno, I always thought riding a big bike is inherently safer than a scooter, maybe this proves it.

About 30,000km I think in the past two years, and it’s quite possible :slight_smile:

Happy and safe riding, y’all.

23

I’m not going to get judgemental on you for putting a child on a bike, but I honestly don’t understand how you can complain about how dangerous it is to ride here then sit your boy on the back.

Of course I had some close calls and the odd minor accident when I first started riding, but that doesn’t mean you can’t learn from those mistakes and improve your own riding. Most collisions I see involving a car and bike in Taiwan are the bike’s fault. Bikers - including me - often fall into the trap of blaming other road users for everything, when really we should never get ourselves into situations that make accidents possible.

If someone stops suddenly to pull a stupid manoeuvre and I hit them, my fault - I must have been too close or going too fast. If someone pulls out of a blind intersection and I hit them, my fault - I should have slowed down if I couldn’t see what was coming out.

The point is that riding is inherently dangerous, but there are many things we can do to mitigate the danger and create a relatively safe environment for ourselves. Accidents only happen when you rely on other road users to keep your environment safe for you.[/quote]

Yes, silly me to think I have any rights… or even such a thing as “right of way”. I always wondered why on the lame riding test I was asked to stop at a traffic light and a pedestrian crossing. Or stay between those metre wide sensors. Seems you don’t need to do that stuff in real life out on the road…

Oh, silly me, I failed my ESP class at school. I just couldn’t read other peoples minds so I do have a problem of knowing if someone will do something crazy in front of me on the road… Crazy me. Of course I should stop at a green light as someone maybe going through the red light, or stop at a blind intersection when I am on the main road, someone may want to pull out of there without looking. Oh and I just hate it how I leave a big distance between me and the car or scooter in front so I can stop safely but because there is such a big space, 2, 3, 4 or more scooters will try to overtake me, get half a tyre length in front and cut across in front of me and the car or scooter in front. Now I need to slow down and make more room and the whole thing repeats itself again and again. Even though I can see that someone is going to cut me off, I am not able to judge if they will cut enough to just get in front of me or if they are going to cut and push me sideways. A few centimetres can be the difference between eating the pavement or not. Though you try to be on guard and protect yourself all the time, it can be quite difficult to read other people’s minds. To me, even if I see that a dickhead is going to cut me off and I can stop and swerve to keep safe, that is a near miss to me that shouldn’t have happened.

Like I said previously, I am not sure which is more dangerous, me doubling my boy or him walking to school. Cars and scooters still go through red lights and pedestrian crossings, even when there are crossing guards there. I sit my boy on the back of my bike and he wears a helmet, when we go on long rides on the weekends, he also wears his roller-blading knee and elbow pads too. Well I try to be a bit safer than those who stand their kids up on the front of their scooters with no helmets just waiting to smash their face into the scooter dashboard. How can I complain… Think about it… I just can’t accept people trying to hurt me or my boy, either on a bike or as a pedestrian.

I have said this story before, I have been hit by a car at a set of traffic lights, How silly of me, why would I even think it is safe to walk when I have a little green man flashing light at me saying walk. I should have known a car would cut across the intersection to beat the oncoming traffic. Oh silly me, my fault, but I still sued his ass.

One time when on the back of a scooter, I had a car overtake us so close that their right mirror broke when it smashed into my arm and then they continued to push us into the gutter while they tried to turn right. Wow, I should have been so angry at my girlfriend for not being able to tell a car would come and hit us side-on from behind. But I should be happy the car stopped and the driver helped us stand up and said “sorry” to us… Sorry don’t mean anything when you are dead though…

Let’s keep supporting the crazy drivers and keep blaming ourselves… That should make things safer…

24

Llary’s talking about a way of thinking that helps you protect yourself. I’m sure we all realise that there are occasionally freak situations where there’s nothing at all you can do. But most of the time, there’s an awful lot we can do to make ourselves safer. Nobody’s suggesting blaming yourself for others’ crappy driving. But it can really help to look on everything that happens to you on the road as your own responsibility.

25

Sean, it’s not about fault or blame or anything like that. Its about ways to minimize the danger. It is absolutely bog-standard operating technique – as I said, I learned it 35 years ago, long, long before I ever thought I’d end up in Taiwan.
If you really find it as difficult to anticipate situations as you describe, all I can suggest is perhaps buying a car instead.

On another note, I noticed that wonder was talking about the speed at which he was riding – 80-90kph on a Kymco Special is pretty much getting up there to full throttle! On a road with side exits and alleyways.
I said before that it has nothing to do with blame or fault, but riding a road like at at nearly full throttle is just ASKING for trouble! Just a little wee twin-piston disc on the front and a drum on the rear – how long does that bike take to stop?

26

[quote=“sandman”]
20 years without a close call for me. Riding 50km every day more or less. Only close calls I’ve had have been through me running myself off the road.
You also forgot to quote Llary’s “learn from your mistakes.”
It’s not a close call if you’re anticipating the other driver. It’s how you ride in these conditions. If you fail to do this, you’ll come a cropper more than likely. I have people try to cut me off every day too, along with all other manner of the nuttiness they perpetrate. But they’re not close calls because I know what they’re going to do before they’ve thought of it themselves. Stay alive.
This was all taught to me when I first learned to ride around 35 years ago – it’s not exclusive to Taiwan but anywhere where you’re on the roads in a vulnerable situation. Although there’s a far higher incidence of poor road-using here, for sure. But preemptive avoidance/anticipation is standard riding technique anywhere and it was second nature for me many years before I started riding in Taiwan. It should also be second nature at any speed. 20mph on a wee Honda or 140mph on a Laverda Jota, shouldn’t really make any difference.[/quote]

Sandman put it better than I did :notworthy:

I think one problem with foreign riders in Taiwan is that most had no riding experience before arriving. In Taiwan it’s so easy and convenient to get licensed and buy a bike that many people start out on scooters who would otherwise never have got into riding. That feeling you get of being hemmed in and bullied by other road users is just motorcycling, it is no different in the UK, US or Japan.

I am lucky because I had the privilege of proper rider training with instructors on the road. At the time I thought it was all rather boring and pointless but now I’m very thankful for what I was taught. It was always drummed into me that any accident you have when riding is your own mistake, no matter who you would say is ‘at fault’ from a legal perspective. So no, it is not your fault if someone pulls out in front of you without warning, but it is your fault if you didn’t maintain the right speed and distance to recover.

I am not a natural rider by any means. I have been out on the track a few times and I’m crap, I have no balance and I’m too scaredy. I just put a lot of effort into remembering and practicing what I learned from my instructors and own experience. So if I can make it through tens of thousands of km on the road without incident, there’s hope for everyone. It would be great if someone could resurrect the mini Forumosa safety courses we had a while back.

27

And all this of course, doesn’t mean you’re safe on a bike – far from it – just ask Captain Stag, who’s an expert rider by all accounts.
But you CAN learn to anticipate and you CAN learn how to minimize the danger. It’s NOT intuitive or anything like that. It’s a learned method of minimizing risk.

28

I would agree with virtually all of the above save that unavoidable accidents can happen.

I remember a good friend of mine riding home from work one day in the UK whilst raining slightly. He was a good rider, and saved the silly stuff for the track days. He was doing about 35mph in a 50 zone, with a car beginning to come past him, when some silly old duffer pulled out from a side street, without looking and no lights on as it was dusk thereby giving any warning. My mate had no time to take avoiding action and hit him, as did the car that was about to come past him, but my mate went straight through the drivers window - it was a left hooker - and killed the driver as he hit him full on helmet to head.

Not my mates fault in any sense, but he still has to live with the memory, as well as a few months off work with a busted pelvis.

29

See, that tells me its happened more than once to you on the same stretch of road. This is what I mean by anticipation. It happened once, it will probably happen again. Therefore I 'aint riding that stretch so fast I can’t stop when the next arsehole pulls a nutcase move.

Yeah, Traveller, as I said, you can anticipate and preempt till the cows come home but you’re NEVER going to be completely safe as long as you’re straddling a bike. It’s about minimizing risk, not removing it altogether.

30

[quote=“sandman”]And all this of course, doesn’t mean you’re safe on a bike – far from it – just ask Captain Stag, who’s an expert rider by all accounts.
But you CAN learn to anticipate and you CAN learn how to minimize the danger. It’s NOT intuitive or anything like that. It’s a learned method of minimizing risk.[/quote]

Well, as a rider my limited expertise is largely based on training and experience (mine and others).

…The factors that influence the safety of a rider on public roads and in the event of a crash largely depend on the rider himself…as in many transport related accidents and incidents, the human factor is most often the weakest link…and there are many ways to minimize the risk caused by human factors…It’s all about the steps a rider will take to prevent an accident (probable injury) and the steps he or she will take to minimize injury in the event of an accident…unfortunately, we can never tell when and how an accident will happen so this is a constant variable that we must deal with…and this is where rider training comes into play…

In motorcycle riding for example: A proper training course will do lots more than just teach how to handle a motorcycle. It’ll teach a rider road awareness skills as well as situation anticipation skills…and as I recall from when I took my course in Canada, our instructor never used “if” to describe riding situations, he would use “when”…ex: “When someone pulls out in front of you…”…this has a psychological effect on the rider that puts of emphasis on constant awareness…

So, the skill of handling a motorcycle (or scooter) isn’t just about twisting a throttle, squeezing brake levers and changing gears, it’s also a mental exercise…(and I learned this in a country where there aren’t too many moving targets on the roads…Taiwan’s roads are much more challenging in this regard)…

Then, there’s the importance of being well prepared for the unfortunate event of an accident…proper riding gear is indispensable for any rider who understands the risks of being on two wheels…I won’t get into details on this as it’s worthy of another thread…but if you have any doubts about protecting yourself correctly when riding, then you should drive a car or take the bus…

Anyways, the point I’m trying to make is that many people arrive in Taiwan with no riding experience and training, and get on scooters or motorcycles without having any idea of the dangers that lie ahead…mostly from not knowing how people drive in a new country…unfortunately, lots end up learning the hard way and end up blaming the local driving habits as the “main cause” of an accident…sure, the dicksmack that pulled the u-turn without looking is an idiot by all means, however it’s not difficult to figure out that most locals have dicksmack driving habits after being here 5 minutes…(I think every foreigner realizes soon after getting off the plane that driving here is pretty wild)…so, knowing full well that the driving habits of the locals lean towards having little regard for safety, a rider must keep this in mind at all times and adjust his riding to suit the conditions…

I agree that riding here can be a chaotic and heart pounding experience on a regular basis…and even our patience will run out at times, but it’s still possible to be quite safe if the riders takes the right approach to learning skills and protecting themselves correctly…of course, there’s still the randomness of drunk drivers and whacked out crazy drivers in their rice burners that we just can’t control…that’s the risk!

31

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Sometimes I kill myself, I really do! Can’t believe nobody chastised me for that bit of silliness.

32

[quote=“sandman”]On another note, I noticed that wonder was talking about the speed at which he was riding – 80-90kph on a Kymco Special is pretty much getting up there to full throttle! On a road with side exits and alleyways.
I said before that it has nothing to do with blame or fault, but riding a road like at at nearly full throttle is just ASKING for trouble! Just a little wee twin-piston disc on the front and a drum on the rear – how long does that bike take to stop?[/quote]

Yeah it was/is a farmer’s bike but I had an excellent mechanic who had it in top condition. Brakes were excellent and the tires near new. Control was amazing even when breaking. Top speed was a modest 115 k/mh. I guess around 80 k was my cruising speed.

Was it llary who pointed out how difficult it was to read the roads while traveling at that speed in the extreme right hand lane? Perhaps I should clarify: Most of the time, on rural roads where there is little or no shoulder and almost never a scooter lane, I would try to ride in the right-hand third of the lane, just outside the imaginary scooter lane. Most rural highways (not inside townships) are wide open and you can see for great distances because of all the farmer’s fields. So I found higher speeds on these roads were relatively safe. There are no alleys leading onto rural roads.

Also, when I had my close calls, yes, I was familiar with the route. It’s coming off Highway 1 going into Kaohsiung from Tainan, which leads into a wide “scooter-lane” that is more like a third road on the inside, separated from the two car lanes bu a median. I had been driving that road almost once a week for months without a close call so that’s why I was surprised, at that location, to be cut off by a car that was doing a U-turn into the scooter lane. There were about 10 bikes that had to stop suddenly.

The other time it was probably more my fault than the other guy (my fault for thinking he wouldn’t do it), as he saw me from a distance he just did his U-turn right in front of me without a second thought. That’s when I knew it was about time for me to hang up the helmet. I enjoyed riding at the posted speed limit but also took advantage of wide-open roads that looked safe enough to throttle up. Most times I got away with it, sometimes I didn’t.

I don’t doubt there are safe riders out there who have rarely had a close call. It’s all well and good. But I didn’t eliminate mountain roads or rural roads from my rides because I found some of those roads the most fun and I got away with it. I also didn’t ride at 50 k/mh most of the time either. But that’s just me.

I don’t know if I pointed this out in the OP, but I don’t care how safe you drive on TW roads or how much training you have. There’s bound to be a couple of idiots who have your number and will ruin your day or your week, what have you. The main point I wanted to make was that no matter if I drive like a banshee from hell or an ultra-safe, well trained experienced rider, I wasn’t going to let some TW moron cripple me. So I hung it up.

33

Well, I had one of those unanticipated near misses again today…
Well, actually it was anticipated as the same thing happened last week so it wasn’t actually a near miss…

Here I was riding along towards a T-intersection. Not 50 metres from the driveway of my apartment block driveway. I put my indicater on to turn left, I am right beside the centre line, road is clear to my left and right. It was safe to make my left hand turn. But as I started to go, a scooter comes from behind me goes around the outside (which is the wrong side of the road) and goes around and cuts in front of me to turn right. Now why would I have anticipated that would have happened. Well This same thing happened to me last week. So since then I have been going as close as I can to the centre line, without going over it and checking my mirrors for people coming behind and then having a quick glance over my shoulder. I have actually started checking my mirror as I approach the intersection. But this idiot was going so quick that whereever they were coming from they were going fast enough that from the time I checked my mirror and glanced over my shoulder then looked forward again to make sure the intersection was still clear, it was so I started to go, and then the idiot flew around me. Why would they do it that way, the whole rest of the lane was open and safe for them to barrel through and turn right without looking. But they chose to go around me on the wrong side of the road and turn right…

Well luckily there was no collision as I am sure if I had hit this idiot as they cut in front of me, they would have fallen into the middle of the intesection and possible under some cars that couldn’t stop in time. And that would have been very inconvenient to me and even would have spoilt my breakfast… How Rude that would have been…

Anyway, I am sure someone will be able to tell me how I could have avoided that not-near miss totally…

“It’s all fun and games until someone gets hurt!”

34

I don’t understand. Are you asking me why so many people here drive like idiots? I don’t know – maybe because they’re idiots? Or are you asking me why I think many people DON’T drive like idiots? Because that’s not what I think at all. I KNOW they do. And I drive accordingly. Therefore I very seldom find myself in a situation in which I don’t have a get-out clause. Just like in UK, sharing the motorway with soccer moms in giant SUVs, little old men wearing flat caps and driving monkey shit brown Allegros on a Sunday, articulated lorries, soccer hooligans driving white Ford Transits and all the rest. As Llary said, it’s part and parcel of motorcycling, and its been pretty much my experience all over the world.
Wonder’s got the right idea – he can’t stand they way they drive so he’s not going to be part of it. Fair enough. As I said, perhaps you ought to think about buying a car instead?

35

my solution is : drive fast enough so that noone has the chance to catch up to you and cut you off :sunglasses: That’s also how i’ve justified not having mirrors, brake lights, and turn signals… but as we all know, the faster you go, the more danger you ultimately put yourself in :loco:

36

Sean, I still don’t get it. Motorcycling is dangerous, but nobody is forcing you to ride. You feel like riding in Taiwan is tempting fate every time you get on that bike. So why the hell do you stick your child on the back and carry on while complaining about the extreme danger? You can buy a car for peanuts here, why not drive? Or walk? Or take a taxi?

Sandman, Mordeth, myself and others are saying that we have ridden motorcycles outside Taiwan and it’s just as bad if not worse. You might disagree with me but I find Taiwan traffic very predictable - if someone can do something stupid, they will. Riding on expressways is great because car drivers are so scared of hitting you they stay well away. UK motorways are hell on wheels because everyone is doing over 160km/h and driving very aggressively. Less accidents happen but when they do, it’s game over.

There is no way you are going to change the driving habits of a nation so either do what sandman and I do or what wonder did. Pretty easy, huh?

37

Correct, nobody is forcing me to ride. This thread was about someone who has had enough and sold their bike due to the craziness. I am agreeing with them and sharng some crazy incidents I face everyday.

Just find it hard to believe some have never had any close calls and can anticipate every move that is going to happen in front of them and that if some crazy smashes me, it’s my fault.

No we aren’t going to change a nation. So I guess I shouldn’t share stories of what happens on the road or have any feelings about it then…

As a pedestrian, I have been hit by a car as I mentioned in an earlier post, and I was carrying my son, he was only 14 months at the time.
My Taiwanese brother-in-law died at the hands of a drunk driver about 10 years ago now…

This shit happens back home too, and I would also share the stories on the Australumosa website too, if I was home and the site existed.

I feel safer blasting around the track as fast as I can with Temple (though I am not as fast as Temple) than riding at a fraction of the speed out on the road. But the solution is not to sell my bike and I will vent about an incident when it happens.

And that’s all from me… for now… :raspberry:

38

Here is my solution.
Why don’t you buy a car for daily commuting and keep your bike for the track.

Come on, every body has bumped into someone at work or at school walking in the corridors do you blame them for not walking responsibly? On a bike it goes faster and without protection.

I sold my bike because I didn’t fell comfortable on it anymore. I didn’t blame life for it.

When my brother ended up in a hospital in Korea after a bike accident, when he woke up 3 weeks later, the first thing he said was " I should have known better than to trust logic driving"

You know the way it works. You play by those rules or get rid of the bike.

I might get deleted on this post (MJB give me a chance here) but, I am sick and tired of reading “These Taiwanese’s drivers are this and that…bla bla bla.” You live here and it is the way it works. If you can’t deal with it…

The most funny part is when I hear it from foreigners that don’t wear helmets anymore and are burning red lights saying " everybody does it, so me too. But they still drive like shit."

PS: As a responsible father, Why do you put your son on your bike when you know that something bad is obviously going to happen ( due to these bad Taiwanese drivers. Not your fault of course )?

Get a grip

Who is worst? The guy who hits you (because of the bad driving on the island)? Or you that knows that he is going to be hit with your son on the back of the bike?

My 2 cents

39

I’ve found that cars can be just as fun but without much of the risk, though I suppose it’s true that the smaller the car you have, the less protection you get. They don’t have to be all that expensive either to get a rush - this little number ( tw.f4.page.bid.yahoo.com/tw/auction/d30619763 ) would likely smoke my old yamaha 150cc pretty easily.

My closest call was just losing traction on the front tire from turning too sharply on a wet manhole because I’d been cut off by a taxi on chongsiao east road in Taipei - ended up dropping my bike in the process, but landing on my feet.

Motorcycle and scooter accidents are only more common here than in other countries because of the number of them on the road. Many of the drivers here are bad, yes, but thankfully most drivers get used to it and anticipate the bullshit. For a little stress relief, drive a car.

40

[quote]As a responsible father, Why do you put your son on your bike when you know that something bad is obviously going to happen ( due to these bad Taiwanese drivers. Not your fault of course )?

Who is worst? The guy who hits you (because of the bad driving on the island)? Or you that knows that he is going to be hit with your son on the back of the bike? [/quote]

Not judging you at all – its not my kid – but that’s a couple of questions I think are worthy of consideration.
As I said, I haven’t had a close call in 20 years of riding here, but I’d no more consider carrying a child on a bike that I would of flying in the air, especially if I was having as much difficulty adapting to local conditions as you describe yourself as having.