Some answers about divorce in Taiwan

[quote=“Tomas”]Your reaction is defensive and will incite a stronger reaction from your child’s mother and her people. Choose peace instead. Call off the police. It’s too early for that.

Vigorously defend your rights. Always. But choose peace.

She will follow.

And you won’t need the police.[/quote]

I in principle agree, however there are situations where the police comes in handy.

After my divorce, my former wife still tried to get the courts and the police after me. It was getting a pain in the bum.

What happened was that once the former MIL came to pick up the kids, she demanded access to my house, and I blocked her in an as non-threatening way as possible. Anything else would have meant that I would have the police after me again, and that I have tried too many times.

She then took her umbrella and tried to whack me into letting her in. I yelled until she left, however later discovered to my delight that she had left several bruises on my arms. (I was way too smart to try and defend myself, let her whack me the more the better.) Fine and good, off to hospital get a report, then off to the police and then go after them. They woul up paying me a symbolic sum of money in return for me dropping the case.

They got a taste of their own medicine, and after that they cooled down a lot.

Getting the cops involved paid off at that time.

[quote=“Tomas”]

Vigorously defend your rights. Always. But choose peace.

She will follow. [/quote]

Without knowing his wife or her family, you cannot say this with any certainty. There is no guarantee that she will respond to peace with peace. Some people perceive a passive/ peaceful response as weakness and an an opportunity to exploit and antagonise them further.

[quote=“pgdaddy1”][quote=“Tomas”]

Vigorously defend your rights. Always. But choose peace.

She will follow. [/quote]

Without knowing his wife or her family, you cannot say this with any certainty. There is no guarantee that she will respond to peace with peace. Some people perceive a passive/ peaceful response as weakness and an an opportunity to exploit and antagonise them further.[/quote]

You have no idea what I speak of, and I don’t think explaining it to you will help. But sure, I’m wrong. You win. Have a cookie.

[quote=“Tomas”][quote=“pgdaddy1”][quote=“Tomas”]

Vigorously defend your rights. Always. But choose peace.

She will follow. [/quote]

Without knowing his wife or her family, you cannot say this with any certainty. There is no guarantee that she will respond to peace with peace. Some people perceive a passive/ peaceful response as weakness and an an opportunity to exploit and antagonise them further.[/quote]

You have no idea what I speak of, and I don’t think explaining it to you will help. But sure, I’m wrong. You win. Have a cookie.[/quote]

For someone talking about peace, you need to take a deep breath and chill a little :laughing:

PHDaddy’s advice is fair and with his experience in that field, I would put lot of faith in his advice.

Time for a cookie and a big glass of milk :lick:

Backing off often helps too.

Just steer clear, liw profile, allow tempers to cool.

I’m talking about inner peace. In one’s own heart.

Feeling angry and defensive is not to anyone’s advantage when going through a divorce. It causes people to make a lot of mistakes that they regret later.

If you stay calm in your heart, remember the end goal (e.g. to maintain close relationships with children), view situations rationally, riposte when it’s necessary, you are at an advantage in a divorce.

I have been there. I have experience. What I suggest worked very, very well for me and for the many friends I talked to who went through similar situations.

Mr. He understands perfectly what I mean.

Others do not, will not, because they will generally choose to misunderstand. I have little time for these people.

I concur fully Thomas. It’s hard to stay calm, focused and reting in oneself when your life falls apart around you, however you have to.

I managed to do it during both my divorces - the first one was because we from the break-up to the divorce spent 2 years separated, the second time because I had been there before.

You will overall fare better in life if you follot that tack.

[quote=“Markova”][quote=“Tomas”][quote=“pgdaddy1”][quote=“Tomas”]

Vigorously defend your rights. Always. But choose peace.

She will follow. [/quote]

Without knowing his wife or her family, you cannot say this with any certainty. There is no guarantee that she will respond to peace with peace. Some people perceive a passive/ peaceful response as weakness and an an opportunity to exploit and antagonise them further.[/quote]

You have no idea what I speak of, and I don’t think explaining it to you will help. But sure, I’m wrong. You win. Have a cookie.[/quote]

For someone talking about peace, you need to take a deep breath and chill a little :laughing:

PHDaddy’s advice is fair and with his experience in that field, I would put lot of faith in his advice.

Time for a cookie and a big glass of milk :lick:[/quote]

Glad to hear that it wasn’t just me that was thinking that. I won’t get personal back, because this thread, and the OP’s dire situation deserves more than that.

He does raise some points that are worthy of discussion though.

Inner and outer calm is clearly commendable and is more likely to elicit a positive response than being aggressive, confrontational etc. However:

  1. When you are going through a separation and potentially going to lose a child due to circumstances beyond your control- e.g. a spouse and her family who simply don’t believe that it is important for the child to have regular contact (or any at all) with their father after separation/ divorce, when you are falling apart inside- you do so because you are human, an emotional being. I don’t honestly see how anyone can be able to achieve a zen-like calm during such turbulence. Self-control, yes. But inner calm ? It took me years to attain peace. I am finally at peace, from my side, with my ex, unfortunately she is not and I doubt that she ever will be given her reluctance to give me any contact or news at all about our 8 year-old boy. I would like to say that I have found inner peace about our son’s situation, but I have not and I never will until such time that we are reunited- not because I cannot see him but because from the many things I read here on Forumosa, and learn from my foreign friends with children living in Taiwan, make me concerned about his everyday life and how he will develop.

I guess complete inner peace, or closure, will only be obtained when I am reunited with him again, which is likely to be many years down the line.

I worry about my children because I love them and care for them. I do not have complete inner peace regarding the child who is not with me, because I care for him.

  1. Culture comes into play as well when it comes to separation and children. In my younger son’s class in Barcelona approximately half the kids have parents who are separated (the kids are only 5-6 years old and a lot of the separations happened when they were very young- proof if ever you need it about the strain that having children puts on a marriage). I talk often to both the mothers and fathers and it’s clear that everyone agrees strongly that it’s in in the best interests of the child to have regular contact with the non-custodial parent. No talk at all about “the child is mine now, you don’t have a right to see him” which I and others have experienced in Taiwan. I am not saying that people here can’t be manipulative- there is the case of one mother in the class who is moving herself and her son 100km away to a new town, new school and new life- which us other parents agree is really bad for him, in order to attempt to change the “facts on the ground” and influence the custody decision of the court.

  2. Not everyone is good, or has good intentions in a particular situation. I am going to take this example to some extremes in order to illustrate it, which some may feel is irrelevant but I feel that it is helpful to take it out of the divorce/ child custody context because for me we are talking about the essence of the human condition : a husband who beats his wife is not going to stop beating her if she maintains an inner peace and shows no resistence or reaction; when your village is ethnically cleaned by (enter name of extremist group here) you are no less likely to be killed if you maintain an inner peace and show no resistence or reaction.

And so a woman who is determined to make life difficult for her ex-husband, regardless of the fact that her actions are harming their child, is not going to start acting fairly if he maintains inner peace and shows no resistence or reaction.

In a situation where both parents have as a priority, as they should, the wellbeing of their child, then of course this peaceful attitude would reap dividends. But of course in this situation there would be no need for a peaceful reaction because neither party would be aggressive or obstructive in the first place.

In the context of a separation/ custody battle in the West , the best advice to all parties would be to remain calm, concentrate on the best interests of the child, and rely on the legal system (not because the legal systems in Western countries are infallible, but because that is what they are there for) in order to resolve disputes.

In the context of a separation/ custody battle in Taiwan, things work differently. The foreign non-custodial parent cannot expect any fairness from the legal system (well at least that is my view and certainly from my experience, some here may dispute it and some may agree). “Going legal” is, again in my view, never going to lead to an improvement in the situation.

A caveat to this is what Mr He mentioned, suing/ countersuing, which is something you need to have a lot of fight for, and all kudos to him for managing to do things the “Taiwanese Way” and coming out on top. I was also offered this advice by a group of English speaking lawyers, but the thought of spending thousands more dollars on something I felt would have no benefit was offputting. I am guessing, correct me if I am wrong Mr He, is that your Chinese is at a level where you could file the documents with the police yourself, or had friends to help you do so.

Aside from this, the reason why I advise the OP to remain calm and peaceful is, not because it will necessarily do any good - which is what I have been trying to illustrate over this lengthy post, instead in order to not make the situation any worse. Because, unless he has the ability or resources to do as Mr He did, any hint that he is going to use the courts or police in order to enforce his rights is extremely unlikely to get a positive reaction from his ex or her family.

The sad fact of the situation is that, regardless of how he acts, the OP may be denied contact with his daughter and eventually be forced out of life completely and possibly out of Taiwan.

update:

went through negotiating 1st session - no agreement in sight, despite the fact I offered my ex-wife
quite a lot (details not important).

Had 2nd meeting with another person (she apparently is working for the judge, who “ordered” her
to have another interview with me (happened yesterday, lasted 4 (!) hours to get more imformation,
so the judge either accept the case or “pushes” is back for more negaotiating.

I feel lucky I have so much extensive time to bring up all my points and in my opinion I think I still
have a very good case - but I am worried about this Taiwan logic.

Here is one example, which yesterday really made me furious:

She:
With joined custody, life things for your daughter could get complicate. For example, opening a bank-account,
applying for a passport, such things always need the signatures of both parents. This is trouble-some …
(In fact, it was the 3rd time I am hearing this - it seems to be a topic on the training-program I guess …)

Me:
I am sorry, but why am I here. Why do we have this meetings. I thought the court wants to find out, what the best interest for the child would be. Am I right about this assumption ?

She:
Yes, that is correct.

Me:
Then please explain me, why (for the thirs time) we are talking about such bullshit ? Here we are again, it seems, that here in Taiwan everything is about to avoid parental-fighting. Same reasons my ex-wife is claiming. And the court seems to have the very same concerns in asking me such questions.
Seriously, what is the problem here ? Do you think my interest is my child is living in stone-age without having a bank-account nor a passport ?
I am sure, there are a lot of ways that I (the father) would have no access to my daughters bank-account (if such desire from my ex-wife would exist)
Please, come on, this is not a reason at all !!

She:
Silent (with a smile …)

But anyway, with this kind of logic, yeah, I agree, I will lose.

Anyway, I am going to the bank later to find out myself, because it just sounds to ridicolous to believe such crap
(on the other side, again, not the first time I am hearing this …)

I just can’t imagine the following situation:

1 parent wants to open a bank account for his/her minor child:

Accountant: Sorry, doing this we need signature of the other parent
Parent: I am single parent / I am widowed
Accountant: Ok, then we need to see such documentation …

This can’t be true, right ?

I would not know, however any holder of custody should be able to open such an account. I do not know in Taiwan, however in Denmark a minor does not need their custodian’s signature to open an account, both my daughters managed. Only passports require joint signatures as far as I know, so that means that you have to sign jointly on something twice a decade.

I have joint custody with my exes and it does not cause any issues.

[quote=“MoTi”]update:

She:
With joined custody, life things for your daughter could get complicate. For example, opening a bank-account,
applying for a passport, such things always need the signatures of both parents. This is trouble-some …
(In fact, it was the 3rd time I am hearing this - it seems to be a topic on the training-program I guess …)

Me:
I am sorry, but why am I here. Why do we have this meetings. I thought the court wants to find out, what the best interest for the child would be. Am I right about this assumption ?

She:
Yes, that is correct.

Me:
Then please explain me, why (for the thirs time) we are talking about such bullshit ? Here we are again, it seems, that here in Taiwan everything is about to avoid parental-fighting. Same reasons my ex-wife is claiming. And the court seems to have the very same concerns in asking me such questions.
Seriously, what is the problem here ? Do you think my interest is my child is living in stone-age without having a bank-account nor a passport ?
I am sure, there are a lot of ways that I (the father) would have no access to my daughters bank-account (if such desire from my ex-wife would exist)
Please, come on, this is not a reason at all !!

She:
Silent (with a smile …)
[/quote]

Strange- perhaps the court is trying to give you a subtle message to stop wasting their time and accept your wife’s sole custody- which is going to be be their final decision anyway.

update:

Had 2nd negotiationg meeting plus private meetings with ex-wife.
We failed to have a kind of mutual agreement - so she is finally asking
for sole-custody.
Negotiating people gave us “green light” proceeding to real court,
which (for whatever reason) will not start before February 2016.

[quote=“MoTi”]update:

Had 2nd negotiationg meeting plus private meetings with ex-wife.
We failed to have a kind of mutual agreement - so she is finally asking
for sole-custody.
Negotiating people gave us “green light” proceeding to real court,
which (for whatever reason) will not start before February 2016.[/quote]

How is the contact with your child going ?

[quote=“pgdaddy1”][quote=“MoTi”]update:

Had 2nd negotiationg meeting plus private meetings with ex-wife.
We failed to have a kind of mutual agreement - so she is finally asking
for sole-custody.
Negotiating people gave us “green light” proceeding to real court,
which (for whatever reason) will not start before February 2016.[/quote]

How is the contact with your child going ?[/quote]

That is key, custody matters less.

i am not an optimist, if someone really blew up a decent starting point, it would be MoTi.

[quote=“Mr He”]
I am not an optimist, if someone really blew up a decent starting point, it would be MoTi.[/quote]

(Unless there is something that he did not tell us)- he has not got nasty, nor done anything rash or aggressive, or even defensive, just gone through the court procedure, and private meetings with his wife too.

His “starting point” would appear to be a wife and family whose intention is to remove him from their and his child’s life.

[quote=“pgdaddy1”][quote=“Mr He”]
I am not an optimist, if someone really blew up a decent starting point, it would be MoTi.[/quote]

(Unless there is something that he did not tell us)- he has not got nasty, nor done anything rash or aggressive, or even defensive, just gone through the court procedure, and private meetings with his wife too.

His “starting point” would appear to be a wife and family whose intention is to remove him from their and his child’s life.[/quote]

Not so, you do not sign a divorce agreement until you have sorted all issues.

The one wanting the divorce gains lots of leverage in the moment that piece of paper is signed. Really, I foresee him getting completely removed from his childs life.

[quote=“Mr He”][quote=“pgdaddy1”][quote=“Mr He”]
I am not an optimist, if someone really blew up a decent starting point, it would be MoTi.[/quote]

(Unless there is something that he did not tell us)- he has not got nasty, nor done anything rash or aggressive, or even defensive, just gone through the court procedure, and private meetings with his wife too.

His “starting point” would appear to be a wife and family whose intention is to remove him from their and his child’s life.[/quote]

Not so, you do not sign a divorce agreement until you have sorted all issues.

The one wanting the divorce gains lots of leverage in the moment that piece of paper is signed. Really, I foresee him getting completely removed from his childs life.[/quote]
Would the father still be expected to pay alimony/maintenance/child support if that is the case?

Yes. Thats the law.

[quote=“Mr He”]OK, I whitnessed a case, where the foreign husband needed the household registration so he could get a visitor visa, giving him enough time to get a resident visa.

We told the bureau of immigration that his wife had kicked him out, and refused to cooperate. Fairly direct and flat. They wrote wifey’s ID no down on a piece of paper, we took that the the household registration bureau, paid them NT$20 and got 2 copies.

As far as I know, if you are listed in them, you have a right to gain access to them. My ex wife tried to stop me, as she was afraid that I could see her address, I still got them.

Regarding applying for a JFRV, the bureau of immigration told us to do it from abroad, as the risk of getting called into an interview with an angry wife wanting a divorce decreases that way.[/quote]

Just to add to this.

In my case, my wife, my kids and I are listed under my father-in-law’s household. My wife, and two kids are listed directly, whilst my information appears in the notes to my wife’s listing.

I was unsuccessful in getting a copy the first time around because I was not specific about which information I needed.

My sister-in-law has a “lock” on her portion of the information so she has to approve its use by others.

By specifying that I wanted only the information of my wife, kids and myself I was able to get the information without anyone else’s approval.

In my experience, another big hurdle is proving that you have paid local Taiwan income taxes. Since in the majority of the situations in which I am aware, the taxes for the husband and wife are filed in the name of the Taiwan spouse, that means that any documentation regarding PROOF OF TAXES PAID (whether for the husband or the wife) must be applied for by the Taiwan spouse.

Obviously, if the husband and wife are not on speaking terms, that could be difficult.

To my knowledge, proof of local taxes paid is indeed one of the requirements for getting an APRC.[/quote]

Asof the beginning of 2014, the proof of taxes paid is still a requirement (I was doing JFRV to APRC).

The tax office outright refused to give me the tax information and told me that only the person who filed the tax can get the records. My wife had filed our taxes for the two years prior to getting my APRC.

My wife got the records and went with me to foreign affairs to show them. Funnily enough, she didn’t let me see them.

It is so depressing to read all this. If I ever marry again, I will make sure that all regarding tax and residency is kept as clear of the marriage as the legislation here allows.

I treasure my APRC.