I have just a few issues after living here for a few years I just fail to understand culturally about the Taiwanese and I would appreciate some insight
Why is it that the average Taiwanese is so unwilling to speak Chinese with a white person?
I just don’t get it. I mean I can understand if they want to practice English but being that this is a rather welcoming country shouldn’t they extend their hand out to foreigners by actively speaking with and helping non-chinese speakers learn the language as this takes away some isolation and let’s foreigners know more about people and how they view the world. Sometimes I really feel jealous of some Thai folks I’ve met here in Taiwan that speak perfect chinese yet they never really studied chinese and Taiwanese locals always speak Chinese with them;furthermore, I’ve seen Japanese speaking absolutely horrible Chinese with locals and the locals just bear with it and keep on speaking Chinese with them even though the japanese and locals both speak great English and could have a more productive conversation if they spoke English. Granted not every Taiwanese is like this and the one’s who are not-I consider my friends. Additionally, I find it odd and I even get a bit offended when some locals refuse to try and speak chinese with me because they think I just don’t know at all. I actually studied Chinese in USA for many years, but I gave up trying to learn it further as I just cannot find people to practice with(I speak English most of the time and only use Chinese if absolutely needed). Conversely, I go to any latin american and immediately the locals are speaking spanish with me and are patient enough to bear with me in my slow-ness(rarely happens in Taiwan)-same with Thailand as well.
In work or school, how come employers/teachers are so willing to tell how someone how bad they are doing and/or talk actively about negative points while at the same time almost completely unwilling to talk about their good points?
For a culture that has persisted for thousands of years, wouldn’t they have picked up that telling someone where they are doing good is going to build up confidence and hence make them a more productive individual rather than just ONLY pointing out weak points in character thus ultimately building up pessimism and underconfidence. What am I missing here? (please keep in mind-I am not trying to speak like in a cultural relativistic way-I just want to know why)
Bit of a rant, I guess—I’ve been in Taiwan way too long…
[quote=“James651”]In work or school, how come employers/teachers are so willing to tell how someone how bad they are doing and/or talk actively about negative points while at the same time almost completely unwilling to talk about their good points?
[/quote]That’s a good question. I have noticed the same and I don’t know why, either. At work, I have become comfortable with the fact that so long as I don’t get criticized, my work is appreciated. If your boss and your co-workers are friendly to you, I think you are doing fine. I have learned to expect not much more than that. The odd gifts are also a pretty good indication that you are appreciated at work. My boss buys me treats from the bakery all the time. I think that’s a pretty positive thing. Good enough for me, anyways.
[quote=“James651”]
Why is it that the average Taiwanese is so unwilling to speak Chinese with a white person?[/quote]
In more than a few years, I have never found anyone ‘so unwilling’.
What?
[quote]In work or school, how come employers/teachers are so willing to tell how someone how bad they are doing and/or talk actively about negative points while at the same time almost completely unwilling to talk about their good points?
For a culture that has persisted for thousands of years, wouldn’t they have picked up that telling someone where they are doing good is going to build up confidence and hence make them a more productive individual rather than just ONLY pointing out weak points in character thus ultimately building up pessimism and underconfidence. What am I missing here? (please keep in mind-I am not trying to speak like in a cultural relativistic way-I just want to know why)
Bit of a rant, I guess—I’ve been in Taiwan way too long…[/quote]
Why would they tell one anything positive?
They’d have to give you something, like more cash or a cushier position.
Would you prefer North American standards where they tell you a meaningless bit of both to your face, and then endlessly talk shit about you behind your back, jockeying for position?
Once you become proficient enough (catch 22 here I know) they will speak to you in chinese. Or get friends that dont speak a word of english. Or get a GF and make a deal with her like I did . I asked her to speak to me only in English so she can learn (and I would correct her as we went along) and I spoke to her in Mandarin (I couldnt even put a sentence together back then) and she would correct me as we went along. A few years later, she spoke English well enough and my Mandarin was useable and then improvements come with further practice. Pretty soon I almost forgot how to speak English and she spoke Cantonese all day long.
[quote=“TheGingerMan”]
Why would they tell one anything positive?
They’d have to give you something, like more cash or a cushier position.
[/quote]I think a smart employer would indeed give you more cash but he/she would also give you more responsibilities and more work seeing that you can handle it well. Hence that would be getting more productivity out of an employee. You get what you pay for… if you manage a business smartly.
I hired hundreds of people back in North America. The owner was a shark so you could say that I had my hands tied in terms of “paying more.” But there were loop holes where I found ways to keep the “good ones” financially motivated… Free food, rent discount on housing, lift tickets to the ski hill, etc. In the end, the little money the business did not have in the bank account was quadrupled by employees who became “ambassadors” rather than mere employees. Meanwhile I was the only one who managed to get more from the owner because he made so much goddamn money while I took care of business. Blowing my horn, here, I know. But 40% losses in revenue within six months, and 40% regained revenue within six months both times I left that job and was re-hired when returning to Canada, is enough to blow that horn. We’re talking seven figures annually in revenue. 40% ? Do the math.
This to say that praising good employees and paying a bit more is not a bad approach to management. So why would they tell one something positive? Because at the end of the day, you can trade a Lada for a Lexus.
[quote=“TheGingerMan”][quote=“James651”]
Bit of a rant, I guess—I’ve been in Taiwan way too long…[/quote]
Why would they tell one anything positive?
They’d have to give you something, like more cash or a cushier position.
Would you prefer North American standards where they tell you a meaningless bit of both to your face, and then endlessly talk shit about you behind your back, jockeying for position?
Take the pain.
Incoming![/quote]
Please bear in mind on the second point, I'm not talking just about work as even back in America my employers didn't really tell me how good I was doing and I really didn't mind it. I'm talking about in all areas of life. For example, I see my chinese co-teachers readily go after kids for underperforming while giving no notice of appreciation of accomplishments in other areas.
Agree with what others have said re talking Chinese. You say you studied in the States, so you probably have a Beijing accent. If it’s difficult for people to understand they’re not going to want to to do it - think of yourself slaving away in a concversation in mangled English when you know you could end the pain by switching to Chinese.
By and large Taiwanese strangers see talking to a foreigner as a rare chance to practice their much paid for and rarely used English. They’ll be less inclined to push it if you hit back with strong and locally nuanced Chinese. My rule of thumb is assessing who’s second language is better - a weird face dance in many circumstances. Language is a tool and whoever has the sharpet tool wins in my book.
I have never found this to be the case. It seems wherever I go in Taiwan the vast majority of people communicate with me in Mandarin without even attempting to speak English.
Also regarding your point about Taiwanese using Mandarin to speak with Thai and Japanese people. These people speak English only as a second language, if at all, then it makes sense for them to communicate in Mandarin. As a general observation people that come to Taiwan from other countries that are not native English speakers or don’t have a high level of English proficiency generally make much faster and better progress in learning Mandarin.
You get all kinds in Taiwan. Last week at a cabin on the Batongguan Trail I met all of them at once. We were sharing the cabin with a group of high school kids who wanted to practise their English a bit but were also happy to speak Chinese in between. One of the teachers spoke good English so I spoke back to him in English. One of the guides spoke no English, or little, and we spoke in Chinese.
Later a group of older hikers came and they just assumed I spoke no Chinese so they said nothing to me but grunts and a few English commands. I thought they were twats so I didn’t bother to reply.
So there you have it: 30 people, 5 of whom didn’t want to talk to me at all, a few who wanted to speak both English and Chinese, one who prefered only English (though he was happy to speak Chinese only with a friend who is more fluent) and the rest who were happy to speak Chinese.
Later a group of older hikers came and they just assumed I spoke no Chinese so they said nothing to me but grunts and a few English commands. I thought they were twats so I didn’t bother to reply.
[/quote]
Most older hikers I run into are almost exclusively Taiwanese speakers (and tend to be politically pretty green–that’s why they are out discovering their native land etc.). Sure, they understand Mandarin and can communicate in it, but it’s an effort for them and for whatever reasons they generally just don’t feel like it. I run into a lot of older Taiwanese these days who say that when their kids were growing up, they (the parents) spoke more Mandarin, but now that Taiwanese is socially acceptable and their kids don’t live at home, they speak almost exclusively Taiwanese and have honestly forgotten a lot of their Mandarin. Try speaking some Taiwanese. You’ll be amazed at the response. Perhaps overwhelmed.
[quote]
So there you have it: 30 people, 5 of whom didn’t want to talk to me at all, a few who wanted to speak both English and Chinese, one who prefered only English (though he was happy to speak Chinese only with a friend who is more fluent) and the rest who were happy to speak Chinese.[/quote]
I think this is the key. Most people want to talk, not do a language exchange. They will naturally shift to the language they speak better. If it is too much of an effort, they will give up because the whole exercise is boring.
[quote=“Feiren”][quote=“Muzha Man”]You get all kinds in Taiwan …
Later a group of older hikers came and they just assumed I spoke no Chinese so they said nothing to me but grunts and a few English commands. I thought they were twats so I didn’t bother to reply.
[/quote]
Most older hikers I run into are almost exclusively Taiwanese speakers (and tend to be politically pretty green–that’s why they are out discovering their native land etc.). Sure, they understand Mandarin and can communicate in it, but it’s an effort for them and for whatever reasons they generally just don’t feel like it. I run into a lot of older Taiwanese these days who say that when their kids were growing up, they (the parents) spoke more Mandarin, but now that Taiwanese is socially acceptable and their kids don’t live at home, they speak almost exclusively Taiwanese and have honestly forgotten a lot of their Mandarin. Try speaking some Taiwanese. You’ll be amazed at the response. Perhaps overwhelmed. [/quote]
Actually, I just didn’t really like the group as they burst into the cabin when I was napping and proceeded to knock things down, move things round, and in general make nuisances of themselves.
Not sure about speaking Taiwanese. There are a few KMT groups in the hills, to say nothing of old Japanese who still think the war in on.
I once had an older woman comment that my “Beijing hua” was very good. No guesses on here preference, so I used every one of the limited number of words I knew in our little ccnversation, much to her great delight.
Down south I haven’t experienced this problem, even the semi-fluent-in-English college graduates working in Starbucks speak Chinese with me. Perhaps if you tell them right off the ball that you are interested in Chinese and are here to speak Chinese (in Chinese of course) they will understand – especially if you go to them regularly.
I don’t think they know generally that speaking English with you is not what you want, but they think that by speaking English with you they are helping you.
Also, Chinese is their native language, so if you can get them – the people you encounter daily – to identify you as a speaker of Chinese, they will probably speak to you in Chinese naturally, since they are more comfortable in their mother tongue.
Are you serious? Most Taiwanese people are so nervous about speaking English that they’ll heave a huge sigh of relief when you start speaking Mandarin. Sure, you get the occasional person who is quite fluent in English or the oddball who insists on shouting at you in his broken English, but in my nine years on the island, about 98% of the people I bump into far prefer speaking Mandarin to speaking English. I think you must be creating your own reality with that one. Try changing your perspective a bit. You’ll feel less frustrated.
On the subject of the 99%/1% ratio of criticism to praise that is so prevalent in interpersonal relationships in Taiwan, I have two comments:
Much of this is just Taiwanese culture. Nag, complain, fault-find, criticize. Many people grew up in families where that is how the parents interacted with the children. They don’t know any better, though some of them can be taught, and some of them grew up in positive environments and aren’t prone to unending criticism.
If you can, you’ve got get yourself into a job where there is great demand for your services. Then they won’t dare criticize you. You’ll have to put a towel on your butt to absorb all of the licking going on. If you aren’t skilled, ambitious, or lucky enough to get one of those jobs, you’ll have to figure out how to change things so that you do find one of them, or you’ll just have to put up with it. Point being, if you’re in that sort of environment, you either accept it or you find something better. The choice is yours my friend.
I made the biggest progress speaking Chinese when I made friends with a group of slackers. They wanted nothing more than to play cards and chess and couldn’t be bothered to speak English if it could at all be avoided.
Maybe you need to hang out with some lowdown folk. Then PRESTO. Of course you’ll have to be careful about your vocabulary when speaking with respectable folk, though. My wife still remarks on my … colorful word choices, and we’ve been married for six years.
I’ve never experienced the problem James is having – in 20 years, I’ve seldom met anyone here who isn’t much happier speaking their own language, so much so that I’m having trouble believing he isn’t making a HUGE exaggeration.
[quote=“James651”][quote=“TheGingerMan”][quote=“James651”]
Bit of a rant, I guess—I’ve been in Taiwan way too long…[/quote]
Why would they tell one anything positive?
They’d have to give you something, like more cash or a cushier position.
Would you prefer North American standards where they tell you a meaningless bit of both to your face, and then endlessly talk shit about you behind your back, jockeying for position?
Take the pain.
Incoming![/quote]
Please bear in mind on the second point, I'm not talking just about work as even back in America my employers didn't really tell me how good I was doing and I really didn't mind it. I'm talking about in all areas of life. For example, I see my Chinese co-teachers readily go after kids for underperforming while giving no notice of appreciation of accomplishments in other areas.[/quote]
Fair enough.
Yet, all areas of life? Apart from teaching what are you refering to?
I don't recall getting praised pretty much for anything other than managing to not draw too much outside the lines. Then again, I went to boarding school. Where praise was considered showing weakness.
Yet apart from school, and work, in what realms of social living would one get complemented on, other than flashy consumer goods, performance at the beer league, or finesse on the barbeque?
How is this any different than living in Taiwan?
The only people here who seem determined to speak to me only in English are those whose English is better than my Mandarin; in the cases that my Mandarin is better, we use that, plus abundant TPR (charadese).
As for the self-(and third-person) criticism, the best I can make of it is that you’re supposed to argue that they are fabulous. If my student’s mother tells me that he’s so lazy and not very good in English, I’m supposed to assure her that nothing could be further from the truth. As a waiguoren who can get away with it, I acknowledge these faults if they do exist (within reason), and do the socially acceptable thing when they’re not. (Unfortunately, when I first started, I’d get a bit “assertive” and ask them why they were so critical of their child, whose English was better than their own -or why they were even doing whatever they were doing if they thought they were so terrible at it [in the case of self-criticism]. Oops.)
And the second-person criticism seems to be, as others have mentioned, to help you to “improve” your performance while being unwilling to ask for anything more. Most Taiwanese know and expect this, and tend to have a thick skin about it. Office politics is much the same as in the west, and generally you’re only hearing a fraction of the shite that gets said behind your back, if the things I hear in the office are any indication.
I don’t think it’s that they don’t want to help; but rather they don’t know how to help. In my experience, average Taiwanese make bad Chinese teachers. They don’t even know how to talk about their own grammar. I’ve begged people to slow down, speak clearly, and use simple vocabulary as when talking to a child. They just can’t imagine, project, pretend, or put themselves in other’s shoes so as to communicate effectively with Mandarin-challenged foreigners. They either talk to you normally, or they don’t at all — take your pick.
I agree with what Tommy said earlier about finding a friend who doesn’t speak English. Language exchanges don’t work, I’ve found. If your friend knows English sufficiently well, they’ll recognize your English grammar superimposed in Chinese and almost always understand what you say, giving you the false impression that you’re highly communicative in Chinese. Your English-deficient friends won’t give you that impression. These friends are the key to mastery. That’s why you may never master the language naturally in the States — because almost all Chinese speakers know English.
