Somebody explain this situation to me

[quote=“violet”]No offense taken.

Anyway, I have another question. What is the tolerance for strage men touching women in Taiwan? I know this particular situation was bizarre, but how does the typical TW woman react if a man she has only recently met, say…

Pats her on the arm during a conversation to make a point?

Puts a hand on her back or arm to alert her of a car coming while they are crossing the street? (you know this gesture, it’s usually not necessary, the kind of thing that is caring if a friend does it but a little odd if a strange man does it)

Pulls a stray hair or fuzzball off the arm of her sweater?

And more importantly, how strongly does a TW woman react? (Because I want to act roughly the same way) Do I reactly strongly, as in “Don’t touch me!”, or just say “no” with a disapproving look on my face, or, as was the norm in Japan, use the excuse “I’m shy” so the man doesn’t feel bad and lose face.

Thanks everyone.[/quote]

Pat on the arm is usually ok. Warning someone with a tug that a car is coming is fine. No one pulls hairs or fuzzballs off shirts unless they’re close or intimate. A Taiwanese woman will usually react by moving away far enough so the person can’t touch them again. Subtly, of course. Providing that the guy wasn’t deliberately trying to make you uncomfortable. If he seems to have pervy intentions, then just tell him, “Would you mind not doing that, it makes me uncomfortable”.

Some guys do the shoulder-squeezing thing, and I find that kinda creepy, but they’re usually teachers or something, so I just ignore it.

Perhaps the man at the park wanted to get to know you better, but did not really know how. So he tried to be friendly in the best way he could. He tried to please you with a shoulder rub because you looked tense. It’s probably just a friendly gesture.

However, although there is almost no concept of personal space on public transportation, affectionate physical contact between people who are not bf/gf is usually avoided.

Traditionally, Chinese people don’t hug or even shake hands when they meet. They wrap one hand around the other fist and wave it vertically a couple times. Parents don’t even hug/kiss their children much after they grow up. They love their kids but hardly ever say so. Most things are unspoken, and just known to be that way. So in general, I think, Taiwanese people are not very accustomed to affectionate touching, like hugs or kisses on cheeks.

However, boys will sometimes have their arms wrapped around other boys’ shoulders when they walk. It’s a sign of, “hey you’re my buddy”.

Girls will hold other girls’ hands, and this is not because they are lesbian. It just seems to be a habit for them. I used to find it strange, but I guess they just need somewhere to put the hand that’s not holding the purse?

In general, Taiwanese don’t tend to be physically affectionate, not even with their family. BF/GF can be touchy-feely, but after marriage it seems lots of people lose interest in touching.

I personally feel kind of surprised and uncomfortable when hugged by strangers or acquaintances. But that’s due to my upbringing I guess.

The above is my personal generalization of Taiwanese people. There are plenty of physically affectionate Taiwanese people too. It’s just that they are considered to be more “westernized”. I do think most Taiwanese refrain from unneeded physical contact.

I’m even highly uncomfortable when I have to hug my mom, for chrissake!

[quote=“violet”]No offense taken.

Anyway, I have another question. What is the tolerance for strage men touching women in Taiwan? I know this particular situation was bizarre, but how does the typical TW woman react if a man she has only recently met, say…

Pats her on the arm during a conversation to make a point?

Puts a hand on her back or arm to alert her of a car coming while they are crossing the street? (you know this gesture, it’s usually not necessary, the kind of thing that is caring if a friend does it but a little odd if a strange man does it)

Pulls a stray hair or fuzzball off the arm of her sweater?

And more importantly, how strongly does a TW woman react? (Because I want to act roughly the same way) Do I reactly strongly, as in “Don’t touch me!”, or just say “no” with a disapproving look on my face, or, as was the norm in Japan, use the excuse “I’m shy” so the man doesn’t feel bad and lose face.

Thanks everyone.[/quote]

I had an incident where I was in a cafe and I made some small joke to the waitress. She gave me an odd look, and I reached to pat the side of her arm and to say “I was just joking”. It was 100% innocent. She was fairly unatractive and hitting on her was the last thing on my mind. But she yelled out in English “DON’T TOUCH ME!” making me feel like some kinda perv…and then I felt anger for her making me feel like a perv. An alltogether unpleasant experience.

It seems to me the guy’s actions were the result of confusion, paired with a strong, yet non-directional desire to please or be friendly to the foreign lady. I’ve had some situations like that, not in content (rub rub) but similar in the odd feeling of the action/approach being slightly inappropriate for the situation and/or relationship between me and the respective “friendly” person. Some people simply have the feeling they need to be extra-special friendly to foreigners I often think, they sometimes come across slightly looney as they e.g. dart at you while waiting at the lights and ask strange questions or offer help when none is needed etc., I’m astonished that not more people have had this experience?! (Maybe I constantly look lost and helpless??!!) My impression is that he wasn’t dangerous in any way, but as has been said before, better safe than sorry.

Oddly, the fact that he gave you a neck/shoulder massage doesn’t seem as notable to me as the hand-massage, that must have been very 奇怪indeed!!

The inter-gender hugging and walking arm-in-arm etc. thing is very strong on the mainland and I often heard (I think there’s been studies about that, not sure though), and it seems pretty logical, that these activities are compensatory, making up for the fact that public intra-gender exchanges are not socially acceptable. Now, with society changing as quickly as pointed out by Jefferson, we might see a shift away from this uni-sexual behaviour, maybe …

I believe he would have never acted similarly towards a Taiwanese women as he simply wouldn’t have felt the need to be so “overly friendly” and “helpful”.

As for personal space: I’m still not used to the fact that people start talking to you even though they see you’re in another conversation (in an office setting mostly, unless it’s the boss you’re talking to of course) or youre talking on the phone, ticks me off!! Just an example … 忍!!!

I feel very sorry for you if you come from a place where men have to stand 30 feet away before they can start to talk to a woman. That is the truly strange and bizarre behavior, much more bizarre than the behavior here in Taiwan. I pity the people from whatever sad, deranged hole in the planet you come from. Please tell us exactly where it is so that we can never go there and avoid it.

Extremely.

If it was my wife it would never have started happening. if she’d heard about it, she would have thought it was completely freaky.

[quote]Is it acceptable to permit relative strangers to massage you in Taiwan,
[/quote]

No goddamn way.

[quote]
or did he take that as a sign that I was easy?[/quote]

Who knows what he thought.

Possibly. He never would have been able to do that to a Taiwanese woman (innocent or not).

I’ve never heard it before, but I have heard foreign woman have things happen to them that men just wouldn’t have tried with Taiwanese women.

Hell yeah.

[quote]Anyway, I have another question. What is the tolerance for strage men touching women in Taiwan? I know this particular situation was bizarre, but how does the typical TW woman react if a man she has only recently met, say…

Pats her on the arm during a conversation to make a point?[/quote]

My wife would be offended and get away.

My wife would be very wary.

[quote]
Pulls a stray hair or fuzzball off the arm of her sweater?[/quote]

Again, she’d be really offended.

[quote]
And more importantly, how strongly does a TW woman react? (Because I want to act roughly the same way) Do I reactly strongly, as in “Don’t touch me!”, or just say “no” with a disapproving look on my face, or, as was the norm in Japan, use the excuse “I’m shy” so the man doesn’t feel bad and lose face. [/quote]

Shake it off forecefully and jump back from the man. I think that’s what most women here would do.

Brian

Bu Lai En is right. A strange man touching a woman he’s just seen is a universal no-no in almost every culture, and everyone with common sense can see that. It’s just something you don’t do.

Unless you’re drunk and in a bar, then it is acceptable for strangers to grope each other and maybe take each other home.

I’ve been in a similar situation and my reaction was: :fume: DON’T TOUCH ME!!! :fume:

We had a brief conversation waiting for a bus, 30 minutes later in the bus (I tried to ignore him as much as I could) he wanted to give me this special Chinese massage against my allergy (actually I had a cold, but that doesn’t matter). He got off at the same stop and asked too many questions - freaked me out alright. The guy matches your brief description btw.

Why does everyone think that people are out to get you? Guy was being nice. Hook me up with that number I could go for free massage.

warning…transferral-nothing-to-do-with-you-vent approaching: :smiling_imp:

If he’s being so nice Frost, why not just stay home and send your wife/gf?

Different feeling now??

Look, you want to pay for a park massage, by all means, go ahead. Some strange fucker approaches you and says, “Hey let me relax you”…get the fuck out of here…this is wrong…on many different levels…

And if she grew up in such a tuff town as Detroit, why in the HELL did she let this guy touch her, because he looked like some asian pussboy? I’m sorry, but I’m a pretty easy going guy, and even if some hot co-ed wanted to give me a massage in a park, I’d be too uptight to enjoy one rub…

wrong place, wrong time, total stranger= wrong

PS: the guy was probably working for TVBS…recording the whole thing

“These Foreign Devil Women”

Chinese people** have weird* ways of making friends.

I make friends with the people who I spend time with, classmates, workmates, people from social groups, friends of friends etc. in normal situations, gradually spending more and more time with each other.

But it seems to me like Chinese people** see someone who would make a good friend (a friend is someone who can help them gain money or respect). Then they will go up to that person and try to do something nice for them - buy them a pearl milk tea, dinner, have a nice friendly chat about where you come from and what kind of animals you have in your country etc. so that you can being friends. They really MAKE friends, instead of just making friends.

I think the guy was just being genuinely nice, trying to do something for you, so you’d feel obligated to call him, and then you could be friends - and by friends I mean “friends” - as in he wanted to make you his girl.

Also, if you’re a foreigner you attract all the freaks.

To me the situation wasn’t weird at all. Almost every time I go outside I meet someone of the same freakiness. If I was in another country it’d be weird, but I think meeting that kind of person in Taiwan is quite normal. I’ve had people give me tours, buy me drinks, give me food, shout directions to me randomly, asked to help with TOEFL exams, offered rides in cars and scooters, invites to peoples houses. Also asked for directions to a store on a bus, then the person got off the bus with me and accompanied me to the store and stayed with me until I had to trick them to get away. Also when I got off a 5 hour bus ride from KHH to TPE a girl who I’d never seen before came up and said “You’re from Gaoxiong, right? Do you want me to show you around Taipei?” That was scary. She could’ve seen that I just got off the KHH bus, but I guess she was from my university and had seen me around campus or something. Still it freaked me out at the time for someone to just randomly come up to me like that.

I’m sure there’s lots of nice, non-crazy people in Taiwan and I’ve even met a few of them, but for me your story isn’t very extraordinary. Just the same old crazy Taiwanese people.

You assessed the situation and decided it wasn’t too dangerours, and you got a free massage. That’s always good.

You can add that business card to your collection. You’ll collect a bunch of them in Taiwan, and years later you can look back through your collection and remember all the friends, freaks and taxi drivers that gave them to you. They’re better than photos.

Notes for anti-racists:

  • Meaning alien to my cultural upbringing.
    ** The majority of people of Chinese cultural background, who I have personally met.

that guy was Godsend to remove the knot from your shoulders… :laughing: but instinctively i would suggest not to take the risk again.

as for parks, i pass by one daily and it’s near a train station and shopping area. each time i pass by in the evening, there will be couples necking, petting, kissing intimately as if there are no one around them. the fact is every evening there is a group of middle-aged ladies doing “tai chi” there…and i suppose they are so used to it, they are oblivious to each other. so i gather “taipei lovers”(not sure if it is taiwan lovers) are pretty open in parks.

also i believe it is quite hard to generalise the reactions of taiwanese women to those actions you mention. even though they may be taiwanese grouped together, i believe their upbringing, their education and their international exposure will govern their level of acceptability to those actions as in any country. I won’t worry too much on how to behave in another country, JUST BE YOURSELF, life is short! :unamused:

btw, what’s the profession on his business card, that may give you a clue on why he initiated the whole episode with you… :slight_smile:

Violet. IMMEDATELY go out and meet yourself some taiwanese women. Better would be some old enough to be your big sister. Not floozy. The kind of woman you can respect for who she is and what she does.
You need this because you seem a touch niave… nothng wrong with being niave. But being naive in a country where you don’t understand customs and such is dangerous. My boss’s wife is the coolest woman alive (those who know me and know where I work are vigourously nodding in agreement when I type that) and acts as my big sister. She tells me what is and is not right. What to expect. Perfect life guide.
Aside from the obvious benefit of life guide, I also get an amazing friendship out of this.
It really sounds to me like you need something like this. I think it will keep things like this from happening.

That and you will find where to get an appropriate shoulder massage for less money :slight_smile:

Foreigners attract a range of people, many of them (like people on NY subways) striking up conversations with complete strangers out of bizarre personal needs. Thus, about once every 12 months or so I get a weirdo who decides to give me a handwritten brochure about their troubles or wants to ask lots of personal questions.

The massage guy seems harmless enough, and it would be a better world if people like him didn’t immediately get pigeonholed as “creepy.” But that’s how it is – he’s creepy because he should know that his behavior is out of line and he persists with it anyway. You may have had a knot in your shoulder, but if he was reading “tension” on your face it wasn’t necessarily all from the upcoming job interview. Perhaps it was from the Chinese guy playing “Mr. Rogers”.

Brings to mind something that happened once in Beijing a few years back. One of the Swedish university students was checking out one of the rolling fruit stands when a Beijinger decides it would be a great idea to make his intentions clear with a grab at her breasts. There in public, in front of the whole world, and in broad daylight. It was as if he thought completely different rules of society applied to foreign women, as if 1000 hours of “fuzzy movies” had somehow warped his mind into thinking all western women are ready for anything at anytime. The Swede promptly decks him with Vikinglike efficiency, leading to a race between the fruit sellers to start kicking the man on the ground.

Bu Lai En, thanks for taking the time to write all of that. Lots of good advice from many posters, actually, thanks for all of that. :rainbow:

Tetsuo, thanks for understanding. :notworthy:

You certainly have a lot more…tolerance (?) than the next girl, or guy for that matter. I don’t really know what to say about that. For the most part, I would think a gal would get up and quickly say thanks but I gotta go…

OTOH, you might be unique and just lucky. I personally can’t handle it when people I just met want to give me a neck massage. It give me the creeps. :noway: And I mean woman or man. I just gotta be in control there I suppose.

Taiwanese women don’t take physical contact very well from strangers.
Heck, not even from friends who are guys. And their bfs would get really jealous. Unless it was raining and your friend offered to hold an umbrella over your head, then you may take his arm. There is quite a strict code of conduct pertaining to touching a girl here. Usually when a girl permits the guy to touch her, she is showing her interest. Also, when the guy touchs a girl in any way, it’s usually a sign that he’s interested in her as well. In any other circumstance, touching is rarely permitted by the girl.

With your girlfriends it’s ok. If you are a girl, you would walk down the street shopping with a girl and go arm in arm. That’s pretty normal.

When I first came to Taiwan some women - my buxiban laoban - told me that one way to tell that a Taiwanese woman wants to sleep with me, is if she reaches out and touches me without any prompting from me. I still haven’t figured out how true that is. It’s true in some but not all cases.

interesting points

Quentin – Did the buxiban laoban then touch you?

Are you for real Violet or do you just like talking about slightly risque subjects. I say this because only recently you told us how a stranger had exposed himself to you in a park in Miaoli and you regretted that you hadn’t taken a photo of him in the act to show to people! And now this. Even a child would have the sense not to sit in a park with a stranger while he touched and massaged you for over 30 minutes. I certainly doubt that a child would have to write to a chat board to seek an opinion on whether or not the man’s behaviour was normal.
You are having us on, surely.