Something to ponder come next Tues

Discussion Open Forum
1

ImanIOU, wrote this piece of wisdom years ago, but it’s been on my mind for the last few days. I thought I would posted it as a means to generate thought and hopefully perspective for whatever the results are come next Tuesday. Happy reading.

[quote]
ImanioU wrote on Feb 20 2006:
Oh Lord, I know I’m probably going to get flamed because I cannot put this in the words I want to put this in, but here’s to hoping that people understand where I’m coming from.

Be warned that this post is full of rants…:rant: You’ve been warned.

I get bothered by the fact that a lot of “black achievements” being simply because the person achieving them are black. Do not get me wrong before anyone starts stuffing words in my mouth, I think it’s important for children to look up to people of all colors for their achievements, but not simply because of their skin color…let me revert to metaphors and analogies since I seem to argue better using these devices:

When you celebrate the first black person in space who did not get there until 20 years after the first white American in space, you are basically saying “We recognize your achievement only because of your skin color because a whole parade of white people accomplished this feat before you did.” It is like praising the slower child for doing something that the other kids his age had already accomplish long before him. I feel it only adds to our sense of inferiority that we should applaud ourselves for finally accomplishing what white people have already done. It’s like treating someone special because you know they couldn’t do it like the “normal” people could. George Washington Carver did many amazing things and was a prolific inventor. He is celebrated not because he was black, but because he was an incredibly intelligent and capable human being. That to me is someone that should be a hero to a young black child. He’s not considered an achiever for following in the footsteps of whites, but because he was a leader.

Richard Pryor was a great comedian. And he was black. But he was not a great black comedian (as opposed to a great comedian who was white), he was a great comedian. Full stop.

I think what I am saying (but I could be wrong :wink: ) is that when you quantify a person’s achievements by their skin color, you also say that the reason why we should be celebrating them is because of the their skin color, rather than because of their achievement. No one calls Bob Hope “a great white comedian” or Buzz Aldrin “a white pioneer in space”. Dr. Mae C. Jemison should be celebrated, not because she was the first black woman, or even a woman, in space, but because she’s an astronaut and that in itself is an achievement. Martin Luther King was a great leader of the civil rights movement. Not because he was black, but because he was a great leader.

I think Black History Month is important to remind all of us of the great things black people have done and contributed to the world and to build confidence in our youth that they too can achieve greatness since there do not seem to be a lot of positive role models out there in their lives for them to look up to. But let’s celebrate the people who have made these contributions rather than just their skin color.[/quote]

Thanks Imaniou :beatnik:

2

I like “firsts” of this type (e.g. “first black this”, “first female that”) because they make “seconds”, “thirds” etc. completely mundane. Everyone knows Sally Ride was the first American woman in space, but who knows the second? And now, women go into space all the time…yawn.

3

True, but this is what I think the heart of her post is:

[quote]
When you celebrate the first black person in space who did not get there until 20 years after the first white American in space, you are basically saying “We recognize your achievement only because of your skin color because a whole parade of white people accomplished this feat before you did.” It is like praising the slower child for doing something that the other kids his age had already accomplish long before him. I feel it only adds to our sense of inferiority that we should applaud ourselves for finally accomplishing what white people have already done. It’s like treating someone special because you know they couldn’t do it like the “normal” people could. George Washington Carver did many amazing things and was a prolific inventor. He is celebrated not because he was black, but because he was an incredibly intelligent and capable human being. That to me is someone that should be a hero to a young black child. He’s not considered an achiever for following in the footsteps of whites, but because he was a leader.[/quote]

Of course Obama is a leader in many ways, but I still think its a bit overkill to get so overly excited about something that could have been done years ago.

4

But could it have been? Or was America not really ready until now? Prejudices take time to overcome. Perhaps the tide has only just now turned.

5

If the guy who invented peanut butter were white, they wouldn’t bother teaching about him in school.

If Maya Angelou were white, her books would never have gotten promoted as they were, let alone awarded prizes.

If the “Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.” were white, he would be treated with no more reverence than Bill Clinton. (Okay, an assassinated Bill Clinton.)

If Colin Powell were white, he’d have been forgotten a long time ago, like Norman Schwartzkopf.

If Obama were white, he would have been received as just another fairly inexperienced candidate–think John Edwards, before the sex scandal. The press would have painted him as a villain threatening to spoil the chances of the first female president.

The problem is, there do not seem to be any black Platos or Shakespeares. So black kids have to look for their role models to second-rate participants in white-dominated disciplines, or else to rap stars, sports figures, and the like. (Or they can just make shit up and believe in Africentricism.)

6

[quote=“Namahottie”]True, but this is what I think the heart of her post is:

Of course Obama is a leader in many ways, but I still think its a bit overkill to get so overly excited about something that could have been done years ago.[/quote]
In most mundane contexts, I agree with your point. In others – including Obama’s upcoming election – I do not.

Praising an individual who is part of a minority, for what the majority has long-since accomplished and made routine, does often look like “patting a slow kid on the head”. But not always. Is that all Jackie Robinson accomplished? I don’t think so. For him, getting into the major leagues meant overcoming barriers and putting up with shit that no one else had ever faced. He accomplished all that with grace and style, and is worthy of praise and emulation (by everyone).

Obama’s another case entirely. There, I think the ‘slow child’ isn’t black politicians, it’s society. A hundred and forty years after the civil war, America’s very publicly vaulting over the largest hurdle and collectively entrusting the nation’s highest office to a black man. Could this have been done before? Maybe. But it’s finally being done, and like Chris said, the next time, it won’t be a big deal. When it becomes routine to vote for and elect the best person, regardless of race or sex, society will have arrived at a better place. While not there yet, come Tuesday, the destination will be in sight for the first time. After a long, long road, that’s worth celebrating.

7

I find that incredibly insulting. There are certainly first-rate black participants in white-dominated disciplines, in literature, art, science, the military, entertainment, and so on. Obama’s intellect, eloquence, judgment, leadership and organizational skills have led him to heights other black candidates have been unable to reach, which shows that he’s a first-rate participant too.

8

[quote=“Jaboney”]
Obama’s another case entirely. There, I think the ‘slow child’ isn’t black politicians, it’s society. A hundred and forty years after the civil war, America’s very publicly vaulting over the largest hurdle and collectively entrusting the nation’s highest office to a black man.[/quote]

America hasn’t collectively entrusted the nation’s highest office to a black man. They’ve collectively decided to support him and decided to, perhaps, take a chance to see if he can do the job.

9

Dragonbones:

Entertainment, sure.

As for the military, well yeah, there are a lot of blacks in it, but is that really a mark of genius? I submit that Powell has been lionized because he’s black, not because he’s wiser or more qualified than Schwarzkopf etc.

As for literature and art, of course these are largely matters of opinion, but can you honestly say that any black who ever lived has been the equal of Shakespeare, Plato, Beethoven, etc.? (The Nobel Prizes are highly politicized, and definitely favor affirmative action, so you can’t go by that.)

Science? Other than the peanut butter guy (and how come we never hear about the inventor of cheese whiz? was he white?), how many black scientists have done anything that deserves remembering?

Yeah, Obama’s a clever politician, but he would never have gotten where he is today if not for his race. (Of course he is actually half-white, like a lot of the “black” leaders.) It’s a matter of marketing as much as anything else.

10

I liked this piece on the BBC recently.

[quote]As the SUVs pass - including several with the doors and back windows open, men with large automatic weapons looking out with keen hard glares - I catch just a glimpse of the children, of 10-year-old Malia and seven-year-old Sasha peering out. I think their mother was sitting in the middle.

This is the true revolution.

There have been, after all, prominent black politicians for decades now, men and women afforded the full protection and respect that the nation can muster.

But seeing little black children gathered up into the arms of the secret service, surrounded by people who would die rather than let them die, is to see something that must truly make the racists of Americas past revolve in their graves.

I do not think Barack Obama will win or lose because of his race, but if he does win, the real moment you will know that America has changed is not when he takes the oath, but when we see pictures of tiny people padding along the White House corridors - a black First Family - representing America and American-ness. [/quote]

11

Neil DeGrasse Tyson comes to mind. A genius. Though he is partially responsible for Pluto’s demotion…

12

[quote=“Loretta”]I liked this piece on the BBC recently.

[quote]As the SUVs pass - including several with the doors and back windows open, men with large automatic weapons looking out with keen hard glares - I catch just a glimpse of the children, of 10-year-old Malia and seven-year-old Sasha peering out. I think their mother was sitting in the middle.

This is the true revolution.

There have been, after all, prominent black politicians for decades now, men and women afforded the full protection and respect that the nation can muster.

But seeing little black children gathered up into the arms of the secret service, surrounded by people who would die rather than let them die, is to see something that must truly make the racists of Americas past revolve in their graves.

I do not think Barack Obama will win or lose because of his race, but if he does win, the real moment you will know that America has changed is not when he takes the oath, but when we see pictures of tiny people padding along the White House corridors - a black First Family - representing America and American-ness. [/quote][/quote]

Again this article is about race. Whoever wrote this is blissfully ignorant of the history of the American armed services protecting little black children (i.e. Little Rock is one instance).
And we will not know if America has changed because the White House is occupied by a black family. We will know America has changed when race is no longer a major factor in the conversation. When I don’t have to check off a box when applying for a job/university/etc. When I know that it will not be considered when I apply for a mortgage,credit card, insurance,etc. When I see someone other than Hallie Barry, Oprah Winfrey, Bill Cosby, Condi Rice, Powell,etc. as the only images of successful blacks represented in a white-dominated media.
And when I see Bill O’Reilly sporting dreadlocks…

13

Tyson is more of a Carl Sagan than a Stephen Hawking. He’s famous as a TV astronomer (i.e., an entertainer, perhaps an educator), but what has he done to deserve mention alongside the likes of Copernicus and Galileo? The last African to merit inclusion in our hypothetical astronomy Pantheon was Ptolemy.

The Pluto issue was basically just about terminology–no purely scientific question was at stake. The existence of however many dwarf planets (by whatever name) had been well-established. At stake was what to tell schoolchildren, when they memorize the names of the planets.

14

Nama, perhaps I should point out that neither I nor the reporter are Americans and we don’t see things from an American perspective. Most Brits are appalled by stuff like Affirmative Action and the stuff you describe above would be illegal in the UK. When you notice a person from a minority in a prominent position you don’t point and say “look at the nigger/chink/homo/tart, hasn’t he/she done well?” But it’s common to comment on changing attitudes towards minorities, it’s a reminder to people that the world is moving on and they have to get with the program. Eventually, these little differences become accepted and people stop noticing them. But until that happens a bit of social commentary goes a long way.

I think the guy’s point was that not long ago it would have been unthinkable for a non-white person to aspire to the highest office in the land and the fact that someone is now in a position to make it a reality is a reflection of the way in which race is not an issue for many people any more. It is remarkable that the guy is where he is, not because he’s a great black man but because many Americans have moved on from seeing him as a black man and just see him as a candidate. You can choose not to believe that, but I don’t believe that millions of ordinary white folks are voting for him because he’s black. All the polls are showing that it’s about policy, and the economy in particular.

There appear to be some people who won’t vote for him because of his colour, just as there appear to be many people who will vote for him because they happen to be the same colour as him. But a great many other people are voting for him without really caring what colour he is, and some are even voting for him DESPITE him being black. The fact that Americans are seriously voting for a black president doesn’t make him a great black man, and we can even ignore the stuff about him overcoming barriers that white candidates wouldn’t face. But you can’t ignore the fact that to a great many people his colour is, as someone once said “of no more significance than the colour of his eyes.”

The president is the public face of the nation, not just the chief executive. How remarkable is it that the public face of America could well be a different colour than the majority of people, in a country so racially divided? Anybody with even a small amount of racial bias is going to feel uncomfortable being represented by someone who looks so unlike them, but it seems that a great many people really don’t care any more. They want to see the best-qualified person in the White House, and don’t care what colour he is. I think that’s brilliant.

It’s not an indication of anything in particular about Barack Obama. It’s an indication of how much America has changed, and that’s why people are commenting on it. I don’t think of Obama as a black man, I think of him as the Democratic candidate. Almost all the reporting I have seen has commented on the fact that Americans seem poised to elect a black man as president, but that’s a newsworthy social change. I haven’t seen a lot of commentary about Obama as a black man.

So if Hillary had won the nomination, would it be unreasonable to notice that she’s a woman and that if she won it would be the first time that Americans had voted for a female president? I guess we would have to slap her wrists for all that stuff about the millions of cracks in the glass ceiling.

When Margaret Thatcher was elected Prime Minister of the UK that was a noteworthy event. Pretty soon people stopped noticing that she was a woman.

Anything new is newsworthy. Then it becomes routine. If people keep going on about Obama being black a year from now then you have grounds for complaint. But right now the old order is being challenged and millions of disadvantaged people are able to believe that discrimination is on the wane. Racism is a reality in America just as it is everywhere else. The fact that it can be defeated is incredibly important. It paves the way for every other minority person to say “yeah, what of it?” when someone mentions their colour. Perhaps the day is coming when your colour will no longer be worthy of consideration when applying for a job or credit card.

As for this:

The author is looking forward, seeing change. You’re looking back, seeing injustice and projecting it on the future. Are you saying that the Secret Service will not protect a black first family as well as they would a white first family? I believe they would, and I believe the author is right to observe that once upon a time black people would have been considered unworthy of the sacrifice bodyguards are expected to make. Those people have set issues of race aside. Obama’s family are at risk, so they get the protection they deserve, end of story. Nobody cares what colour they are. Isn’t that worth noticing? I think it sends a message to the people who haven’t got with the program yet.

15

Nama, perhaps I should point out that neither I nor the reporter are Americans and we don’t see things from an American perspective. Most Brits are appalled by stuff like Affirmative Action and the stuff you describe above would be illegal in the UK. When you notice a person from a minority in a prominent position you don’t point and say “look at the nigger/chink/homo/tart, hasn’t he/she done well?” But it’s common to comment on changing attitudes towards minorities, it’s a reminder to people that the world is moving on and they have to get with the program. Eventually, these little differences become accepted and people stop noticing them. But until that happens a bit of social commentary goes a long way.[/quote]

A reporter should always be more informed than their audience and know their subject before writing on it. You don’t need an American perspective to have the insight/forethought to perhaps do a little backgrounding before you write about something. I was pointing out that the perspective is off or incorrect. Edit-And I like many African Americans, think it’s insulting to be continually considered a “minority.” Want to get rid of all these attitudes, call me an American. Period. Stop pigeonholing people.

[quote]On January 23, 1972, she became the first major-party African American candidate for President of the United States. She received 152 first-ballot votes at the 1972 Democratic National Convention.[/quote] That was 36 years ago.
Then we have:
Jessie Jackson (1984,1988)
Alan Keys (2004,2008)
Julian Bond (as a VP candidate 1968)
Rev. Al Sharpton (2004)
Dr. Lenora Fulani (1988, 1992)
Carol Moseley Braun (former Illinois Sentor 20040
Cynthia McKinney (2004, 2008 Green Party)

As for this:

[quote]The author is looking forward, seeing change. You’re looking back, seeing injustice and projecting it on the future.[/quote] I’m not projecting any thing on the future about this. Spare me the lecture. I’m not saying anything about Obama’s run. In fact in posting Imiou’s post, I’m offering something else. That we ARE moving past the “race issue” as that to me is the nut of Imaniou’s post. The above quote is meant to point out that American armed forces/services have in the past assisted in the protection of black American children, it’s not a first and nor is it going to be anything special. Again, before you go criticizing my posts, do a little googling.

Now who’s projecting on to something? Where did I say that the SS would not protect a black first family? Of course they are. :unamused:

16

To be fair, the secret service have a bad record when it comes to Democratic Presidents and presidential hopefuls.

HG

17

[quote=“Screaming Jesus”]Tyson is more of a Carl Sagan than a Stephen Hawking. He’s famous as a TV astronomer (i.e., an entertainer, perhaps an educator), but what has he done to deserve mention alongside the likes of Copernicus and Galileo? The last African to merit inclusion in our hypothetical astronomy Pantheon was Ptolemy.

The Pluto issue was basically just about terminology–no purely scientific question was at stake. The existence of however many dwarf planets (by whatever name) had been well-established. At stake was what to tell schoolchildren, when they memorize the names of the planets.[/quote]

You know, people have arguments–er discussions over who created spaghetti first, also. Was it the Chinese or the Italians :idunno:

18

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]To be fair, the secret service have a bad record when it comes to Democratic Presidents and presidential hopefuls.

HG[/quote]

:laughing: Where’s that link?

19

Well, JFK and Bobby Kennedy for two. Were they not protecting Martin Luther King that day also?

HG

20

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Well, JFK and Bobby Kennedy for two. Were they not protecting Martin Luther King that day also?

HG[/quote]

That’s back in the day. Or as Loretta likes to say :You’re looking back, seeing injustice and projecting it on the future :wink: