Spanish Election Opening Old Wounds

I’m hoping for a Popular Party victory under Mariano Rajoy in today’s election. I think Spain’s withdrawal from Iraq, its establishment of stronger relations with Nicaragua, Bolivia, Cuba and other leftist Latin American regimes, and its anti-Franco laws (which have opened up old wounds) have set a bad precedent.

In 2004, the PSOE won a narrow victory when voters voted out of fear after the March 11 bombings.

The socialists have squandered the economic boom that Aznar started and passed controversial measures such as curbing the role of the Catholic Church in state education. Furthermore, they’ve really opened old wounds by establishing a “historical memory law” aimed at allowing anti-Franco Civil War victims or their families some redress for war crimes.

Anyone who has studied the Spanish Civil war will know that atrocities were committed on both sides. While moderate politicians controlled the Republic at first (Jose Giral), the far-left Socialists, Communists, and Anarchists soon drove the moderate elements out. We live a strange world: somehow, there are still some who praise Castro, Che Guevara and Spain’s Santiago Carrillo (who executed a lot of Nationalist officers as head of the JSU on the Republican side). Furthermore, the current government honors the 90-something Carrillo but enacts a law to remove statues of Franco and Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera? If anything, they should be honoring Franco for saving Spain from the likes of Santiago Carrillo. After Franco’s death, it was moderate Francoist elements that brought about economic development and democracy in Spain. If it weren’t for people such as Don Adolfo Suárez González and King Juan Carlos, the transition to democracy would not have been nearly as smooth.

I am suprised that the current government has decided to open these new wounds, but I am not suprised that most of liberal press doesn’t seem to want to report it. OF course, if a Conservative government decided to stir up such wounds, it would be crucified by the press. For example, what would the press do if Conservatives reinstuted the Cara al Sol as the unofficial national anthem (as it was during the Franco years)? The press would go crazy. By enacting these Anti-Franco laws, the Socialists have opened up a whole can of worms.
youtube.com/watch?v=PPGPo6ejpJY

Actually the Popular Party government and allied media discredited themselves by blaming the train bombing on ETA in an effort to validate its own hard line on the Basque County issue and portray the Socialists as appeasers. The Spanish electorate knew better and were not fooled.

As soon as the train bombing happened I realised that they were uncharacteristic of ETA and looked more like an act of fascists or Al Quaeda-type Islamic extremists. I posted an article about it on Forumosa and someone from Spain thanked me for it.


I went to Spain with my family in 1967, when I was eight years old. We drove through the country from Bilbao to Madrid and on to Alicante, also visiting Valencia. I was just a kid but not too young to see how poor and backward Spain was under Franco.

You need to make up your mind, Chewy. Is socialism really fascism and vice-versa or is fascism really nothing more than the far right conservative extreme? How about it? Was Franco really a socialist and do any of the bolded passages below look familiar? :

Falangists:

[quote]During the Spanish Civil War the doctrine of the Falange was used by General Franco, who virtually took possession of its ideology, while José Antonio Primo de Rivera was sentenced to death by the Spanish Republican Government. During the war, and after its founder’s death, the Falange was combined by decree (Unification Decree) with the Carlist party, under the sole command of Generalísimo Franco, forming the core of the sole official political organization in Spain, the Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional-Sindicalista, or “Spanish Traditionalist Phalanx of the Assemblies of National-Syndicalist Offensive” (FET y de las JONS). This organization, also known as the National Movement (Movimiento Nacional) after 1945, continued until Franco’s death in 1975. Since 1975, Phallangists have diversified into several different political movements which have continued into the 21st Century. . . .

Ideology:
* National Syndicalism (nacionalsindicalismo) was the official ideology of the State.
o Corporate state in which class struggle would be superseded by the Vertical Trade Union, joining workers and owners.

o Roman Catholicism
o Attention to the Castilian farmers
o Nationalist pride in the history of the Spanish Empire
o Anti-communism, anti-anarchism and anti-capitalism[/quote]

[quote=“spook”]You need to make up your mind, Chewy. Is socialism really fascism and vice-versa or is fascism really nothing more than the far right conservative extreme? How about it? Was Franco really a socialist and do any of the bolded passages below look familiar? :

Falangists:

[quote]During the Spanish Civil War the doctrine of the Falange was used by General Franco, who virtually took possession of its ideology, while José Antonio Primo de Rivera was sentenced to death by the Spanish Republican Government. During the war, and after its founder’s death, the Falange was combined by decree (Unification Decree) with the Carlist party, under the sole command of Generalísimo Franco, forming the core of the sole official political organization in Spain, the Falange Española Tradicionalista y de las Juntas de Ofensiva Nacional-Sindicalista, or “Spanish Traditionalist Phalanx of the Assemblies of National-Syndicalist Offensive” (FET y de las JONS). This organization, also known as the National Movement (Movimiento Nacional) after 1945, continued until Franco’s death in 1975. Since 1975, Phallangists have diversified into several different political movements which have continued into the 21st Century. . . .

Ideology:
* National Syndicalism (nacionalsindicalismo) was the official ideology of the State.
o Corporate state in which class struggle would be superseded by the Vertical Trade Union, joining workers and owners.

o Roman Catholicism
o Attention to the Castilian farmers
o Nationalist pride in the history of the Spanish Empire
o Anti-communism, anti-anarchism and anti-capitalism[/quote][/quote]

Spook,

I’m familiar with falange ideology (it was used it Lebanon as well I think). Franco’s National Movement integrated the Carlist and Falange movements after the Spanish civil war. I don’t agree with that ideology, but I’m sure it would have been better than the alternative. Since the Soviet Union was the only foreign power to back the Spanish Republic (America at the time was bound by the neutrality laws), and Carrillo and Negrin gave them all of Spain’s gold reserves, you can be sure that had the Republic won, the Soviets would have been calling the shots. Not all aspects of th Spain under Franco were anti-capitalistic. Tourism, for example, took off in the 50s and 60s, and this helped develop Spain’s economy, and this development helped guide moderate bureacrats who realized that Spain’s future lied in engaging the world, not being a pariah state.

In any case, like I mentioned in the previous article, moderate elements within the Franco regime (Suarez, Juan Carlos–Franco’s choice for King when he died) ensured a return to democracy and built the strong foundations for a truly Democratic Spain.

On another note, it looks like the Socialists were re-elected.

bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= … refer=home

The question remains though, Chewy. Was Franco really a socialist? In other words, was the similarity between National Syndicalism and National Socialism more than skin-deep?

Let that be a lesson to you, Chewy. Historical revisionism Jonah Goldberg-style is a dangerous game.

Link to Spains election web site:

generales2008.mir.es/ini99v.htm

Uhh…Spook…its in Spanish…thats why the words look different.

Latest update on the Spanish election:

Spain’s Zapatero Reelected, Gains Seats in Parliament (Update4)

Zapatero is facing a pretty significant downturn in what was a booming economy.

“Zapatero’s Socialist Party won 43.8 percent of the vote compared with 40.2 percent for the opposition People’s Party with 93 percent of votes counted, the Interior Ministry said on its Web site. That will give Zapatero 168 seats out of the 350 in the parliament compared with 154 for the PP, according to projections. Zapatero currently has 164 seats.”

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Link to Spains election web site:

generales2008.mir.es/ini99v.htm

Uhh…Spook…its in Spanish…thats why the words look different.[/quote]

It’s truly amazing how many people mistake snideness for sophistication. :slight_smile:

Yes, I would say that Franco definitely adopted some socialist-oriented policies. He would have been crazy not to. Spain did not modernize in the 19th Century to the degree that many European nation states did. As a result, there was a huge working class with only a small segment of the population (clergy, landlords, industrialists [who were much less powerful than the landlords]) representing the elite and upper class. Furthermore, it had a lot of regions (Basque, Catalonia etc.) that resisted the Castillian centralism espoused by Franco and most of the military. From a standpoint of development, I would say Spain in this respect resembled Russia more than it did most Northern European countries. In Russia in 1917, Kerensky adopted some socialist policies, did he not? Yet, he was a much better choice to lead the country than the Bolsheviks. Likewise, Franco did enact some socialist policies, but not nearly as many as the PSOE or the PCE Communists would have if they had won the war (particularly since they owed so much to the Bolsheviks for providing them with military advisors and equipment). Thus, it was politically expedient for Franco to do so.

Franco knew that many of his Nationalist supporters and troops, particularly in the North, were not landlords or large industrialists. Unlike the rest of Spain (which had a huge peasantry that consistently voted Socialist), a lot of people in the North of Spain were either Carlists or Catholic yeoman farmers. He needed to co-opt part of their Falangist platform (socialist in many respects) into his own party. However, his policies in the post-war years were not as radical or as socialist as those implemented under the Republican government in the 1930s or even the previous right-wing govenment of Primo de Rivera in the 20s (which started a number of state-financed building projects and mediation boards for workers). Sort of like the KMT adopting land reform as a major tenet of its program when it fled to Taiwan.

Germany, on the other hand, did modernize and adopt welfare-state policies in the 19th Century (under Bismark as I mentioned before). Parties on both sides of the spectrum in Germany (the Conservatives and the Socialist party) accepted this statism. The Nazis, in their election platform needed to draw labor support from the Socialists, and they passed a far-reaching election platform that was far to the left of the other parties and which called for major nationalization of industry.

While I think Franco’s alignment with Nazi Germany and Italy during the Civil War was a huge foreign policy mistake (it ensured the regime’s pariah status in Europe during the post-war years), I still believe it was a better alternative than a Communist Spain with Santiago Carrillo at the helm taking orders from Moscow. Furthermore, Spain was a staunch ally of the US during the Cold War. And, as I mentioned in my previous post, moderate elements within the Francoist movement (Fraga, Suarez etc.) and Franco’s chosen successor (Juan Carlos) ensured Spain’s economic development and road to democracy in the 70s. For example, it was Suarez in the 70s who legalized the Communist Party [seen in the picture bellow (right) shaking the hand of PCE leader Santiago Carrillo (left)].

I’m not an apologist for Franco. However, given the choices the country had in the 1930s, I believe the Nationalists were a better choice. However, the ideal course of action would have been for the Western powers to assist moderate elements (e.g. the Centrist Radicals, Liberals etc) within the Republican government. However, isolationists and America-firsters (whom I believe you admire deeply :wink: ) ensured that this did not happen. As a result, the Republic turned to the Soviets for help and this stengthened the PCE in Spain. The choice of Franco over a PCE-dominated Republic is an easy one to make IMHO.

Back to the original point of my thread. Why is the PSOE in 2008 opening these old wounds again? The law will declare arbitrary sentences handed down by military courts under Franco “unjust” and “illegitimate” and will enable victims or their families to seek redress through the courts for executions, exile and persecution never before challenged. Furthermore, like the DPP in Taiwan, the Socialists plan to turn Franco’s memorial at the “City of the Fallen” into a memorial for his victims. Spain’s Socialists have a lot of blood on their hands as well. The Socialists have broken the pacto de olvido (pact of forgetting) that helped the country rebuild itself in the 70s. This fragmentation could hurt the country’s economy.

[quote=“spook”][quote=“TainanCowboy”]Link to Spains election web site:

generales2008.mir.es/ini99v.htm

Uhh…Spook…its in Spanish…thats why the words look different.[/quote]

It’s truly amazing how many people mistake snideness for sophistication. :slight_smile:[/quote]
I post because I care…I care about change…:smiley:

[quote=“Chewycorns”]. . . Yes, I would say that Franco definitely adopted some socialist-oriented policies. He would have been crazy not to. . . .

I’m not an apologist for Franco. However . . . However, isolationists and America-firsters (whom I believe you admire deeply :wink: ) . . .

Back to the original point of my thread. . . . Spain’s Socialists . . . have broken the pacto de olvido (pact of forgetting) that helped the country rebuild itself in the 70s. This fragmentation could hurt the country’s economy.[/quote]

Chewy, I have to say that this new, compulsive need of neofascists to evict old-guard fascists from their end of the political spectrum is much more convincingly explained in terms of guilty conscience and being “too close for comfort” than any newfound expertise in the ultimate nature of totalitarianism.

That perspective is only reinforced by having read your Franco-wasn’t-really-one-of-us arguments above which I have to say, despite their erudition, I found to be ontologically lame – and I’m not just saying that to be nice.

You would serve yourself and your destiny far better by looking unflinchingly in the mirror instead and accepting the fact that those wrinkles you see aren’t, in fact, someone else’s but your own – the wages of a life misspent trying to still one’s unyielding conscience with selective forgetfulness.

Jonah’s correct in his assumptions. Indeed, his historical analyses are driving liberals up the wall because he is correctly identifying what so many liberals are at heart (if you don’t agree with their worldview)–fascists.

theredhunter.com/2008/07/book_re … ascism.php

A book by a rightwing crank, reviewed by a rightwing nutter.

Chewy, take a hint: the political spectrum is a big and wondrous place (well, not really), but Jonah Goldberg has jumped the shark into bizarro land where people like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin and Bill O’Reilly live. You can’t expect to have a serious political conversation and quote Jonah Goldberg–it simply doesn’t work.

[quote=“rousseau”]A book by a rightwing crank, reviewed by a rightwing nutter.

[/quote]

I guess it pisses off Che fans from the suburbs when you tell them that wearing Ernst Roehm t-shirts would be just as appropriate. How the truth hurts.