In another post, Brian Kennedy alluded to a conversation we had about the changing nature of stand-up punching in MMA. Our conversation provides a response to the often stated remark that if MMA fighters were great punchers, they would be making millions in boxing.
Brian observed that many MMA fighters seem to be approaching their opponents in an almost face-on stance and even leading with their right hand, rather than their left. My interpretation of this is that the left jab and the staggered stance are much more an artifact of boxing rules and scoring system than they are the most effective way to approach a fight. This is particularly evident in Olympic boxing where points are awarded for aggressive punching.
MMA fighters have to be worried about many other forms of attack that are not well-defended by the traditional boxing stance. Wrestling and judo takedowns that are illegal in boxing have to be defended against. Clinch fighting that would be broken up in boxing is also another issue. Since decisions are not awarded on a point system in the same way as amateur boxing, MMA fighters are always more worried about knockout punches.
It is true that strikers are making a comeback in MMA, but this is primarily true among heavyweights. It’s big news now because of the beating that Quinton Jackson gave Chuck Liddell. It is less true among smaller fighters, particularly middle-weights where grapplers still dominate. But that’s the topic of my new post.
Heavyweights punch harder and have a greater chance of achieving a knock out with a striking style. Lower weight classes will have a harder time doing this.
MMA fighters may make great boxers if they have the proper training in this type of more structured and rigid fighting. I love MMA because of it’s fluidity and forcing opponents to adapt to each others shifts in style.
Boxings form does not take into account all the other viable attacks in MMA and so has a form that is designed for guard against pure striking and other boxing techniques. MMA fighters need to be prepared to form a guard against any attack that the opponent may try.
I agree that striking in the Heavyweights is rising and it’s pretty fun to watch. Boxing is still fun to watch but, unfortunately, in the recent years there has not been any really great fights. I love watching heavies and mid-heavies going at it.
It seems that mma is forming its own form of striking. If traditional boxing methods worked 100% guys with good boxing would be dominating in the standup battle all the time. But this is not the case. You see guys with unorthodox styles all the time beating the traditional boxing guys. The diaz brothers are a good example or even BJ Penn. They can hold their own in standup against guys with good boxing experience. But small gloves mixed with kicks and takedowns makes a scrapper style sometimes hard to deal with even if you are a good boxer.
Why do you say that the middleweight division is dominated by grappling? When was the last time you saw an event Scotty? I wouldn’t call Anderson Silva a grappler (though he does have a black belt in bjj)- he prefers striking…the same goes for Rich Franklin, Mike Swick, and the majority of the top middleweights (185lbs) in the UFC.
Strong strikers are taking a massive slice of the pie at ALL weight categories (see George St Pierre, Spencer Fisher, Kenny Florian, Rampage, Chuck, watch out for Joe Louzon…the list is long) in the UFC and whatever is left of pride.
[quote=“Ozzy”]It seems that mma is forming its own form of striking. If traditional boxing methods worked 100% guys with good boxing would be dominating in the standup battle all the time. But this is not the case. You see guys with unorthodox styles all the time beating the traditional boxing guys. The diaz brothers are a good example or even BJ Penn. They can hold their own in standup against guys with good boxing experience. But small gloves mixed with kicks and takedowns makes a scrapper style sometimes hard to deal with even if you are a good boxer.
Just my opinion[/quote]
Ozzy makes a good point. Power is generally the last thing to leave a man as he gets older. The heavier weights in general can produce far more ko’s than the lighter weights and also keep doing it to a far greater age. Chuck Liddel (although I know he was a great wrestler as well) was primarily considered a striker. However he was not a good boxer but was considered one of the greatest strikers in the UFC! He could not even hold a proper boxing fist with his thumbs sticking out all the time (Jackson also was taunting Chuck about that). No wonder he kept poking his thumb into Randy Coutre’s eyes. Chuck’s boxing is and was very sloppy. Always leaving his jaw well exposed. I was 99.9% confident Jackson would KO him. But sure Scott is right about using a different stance. Sure most boxers are sensible enough to modify their stance a bit for UFC. Tyson in his prime (with maybe six months baisc MMA taining) would of destroyed anybody in MMA. (he also had a different stance to say Lennox Lewis). He would also of been a very hard man to take to the ground. If Tank Abbot could destroy half his opponents (all by KO or TKO), what would Tyson have achieved. Would Tyson really of fought in MMA at the time he was making tens of millions for boxing fights. OF COURSE NOT IT WOULD OF BEEN A FREAK SHOW. Now of course things are changing boxing is declining a bit and MMA is on the rise. Therefore this will attract the kind of fighters that were attracted to boxing originally.
As Canis also points out there are more and more good strikers in the middle weight divisions as well. However I agree that in the light weight division ju jitsu will probably dominate as it is harder to get a decent KO at those weights (many exceptions of course).
I’d rather get hit by BJ Penn than Monster or Canis ha ha ha
The Dog is right. When I said middle weights, I was speaking in the sense that Fenlander was when he talked about middleweight divisions. More accurately, I meant Welterweights. And in particular, I was referring to fighters like Karo Parisyan, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn (although he hasn’t fought in a while), and from Pride there’s Shinya Aoki.
This reflects on the Pride/UFC debate. Andy Wang used to say that Pride doesn’t (didn’t?) care about anything except Heavyweights. That’s not completely true. Sinya Aoki is a very creative fighter, but that’s partly because he’s fighting people so completely beneath his class. I’d even say that most of his opponents looked scared to be in the ring with him. He’s lucky he hasn’t fought anyone who can really punch because he’s going to get his head knocked when he does. Nor is he going to have such an easy time on the ground with people like Huges or Pariysan. But I really do look forward to the match up.
Something worthy of mention is the naming of the weight classification compared to boxing. Lightweight in MMA is set at 155Lbs- I used to compete at 147 back in the day and we called that welterweight. Welterweight in the UFC is 170Lbs which is something like super middleweight in boxing.
I wonder if over time more weight divisions will be created in MMA so that it will become like boxing in this sense- in boxing, a few lbs can make the difference between a fighter being on top form, and being absolutely useless.
[quote=“CanisLupusFamiliaris”]Something worthy of mention is the naming of the weight classification compared to boxing. Lightweight in MMA is set at 155Lbs- I used to compete at 147 back in the day and we called that welterweight. Welterweight in the UFC is 170Lbs which is something like super middleweight in boxing.
I wonder if over time more weight divisions will be created in MMA so that it will become like boxing in this sense- in boxing, a few lbs can make the difference between a fighter being on top form, and being absolutely useless.[/quote]
Weight Weight Weight…so you’re tell me that you could be Jet ‘fuckin’ Li and still get destroyed in the ring by a 250 pounder? No shit! Ya don’t say?
On the other hand - if you have some lummox fighting who doesn’t know his ass from his feet then ok…I’ll concede and say that it’s possible. Otherwise, I know and I’ve always known that the size of the dog usually wins the scrap. Simple as that. Pie really.
I may run out of gas 60 seconds into it but you had better be The Lord of Dance otherwise most men my size with some knowledge of pain will crush you.
Just as a disclaimer: I bloody well know that every dog has his day and big or small are capable of outwitting an opponent. But a smaller man should be weary if going in with a big guy. Hence the weight classes.
[quote=“M0NSTER”][quote=“CanisLupusFamiliaris”]Something worthy of mention is the naming of the weight classification compared to boxing. Lightweight in MMA is set at 155Lbs- I used to compete at 147 back in the day and we called that welterweight. Welterweight in the UFC is 170Lbs which is something like super middleweight in boxing.
I wonder if over time more weight divisions will be created in MMA so that it will become like boxing in this sense- in boxing, a few lbs can make the difference between a fighter being on top form, and being absolutely useless.[/quote]
Weight Weight Weight…so you’re tell me that you could be Jet ‘fuckin’ Li and still get destroyed in the ring by a 250 pounder? No shit! Ya don’t say?
On the other hand - if you have some lummox fighting who doesn’t know his ass from his feet then ok…I’ll concede and say that it’s possible. Otherwise, I know and I’ve always known that the size of the dog usually wins the scrap. Simple as that. Pie really.
I may run out of gas 60 seconds into it but you had better be The Lord of Dance otherwise most men my size with some knowledge of pain will crush you.
Just as a disclaimer: I bloody well know that every dog has his day and big or small are capable of outwitting an opponent. But a smaller man should be weary if going in with a big guy. Hence the weight classes.[/quote]
How much of a weight difference do you think a guy would need to have a distinct advantage over a smaller but better fighter?
[quote=“dablindfrog”]has KIMBO ever fought in MMA or UFC???
if not,how well do you think he would fare??[/quote]
Blind frog. I like Kimbo as I think he has a great personality. However he wasn’t actually that good as a bare knuckle fighter. There are and have been far far better “knuckle men” such as the late Bartley Gorman. You can read his book. You maybe able to get it off Amazon, I also have a copy.
Kimbo fought an MMA guy called Gannon (or something like that) that was a “UFC” standard fighter “although not that good for UFC”. Kimbo lost that fight, but put up a good show (with modified rules). Kimbo went against a high ranked boxer and got totally outclassed although showed his “gameness”.
There are some very good bare knuckle fighters out there far far better than Kimbo. Bare knuckle fighting is still very big business in Europe and especially Northern Ireland. It is very fringe in the USA and not so many people partake as in Irealnd and UK with their large gypsy communities. Top figters can pull in around 50 000 US a fight (sometimes a 100 000). Some people say bare knuckle fighters only do it as they could not be good at legit boxing, that is crap. Most of them do it as they have criminal records and are banned from boxing. It is also in the gypsy community a cultural tradition (as you probably saw in the movie scratch). The Bare knuckle fighter in the movie scratch was based on a boxer called Frankham (who actually trained Brad Pitt for the movie) he was also a very very high ranked legit middle weight boxer. One famous bare knuckle fighter was recently also the number 2 ranked legit heavy weight boxer in Britain. But he still fought bare knuckle as well for the prestige in those communities. Bare knuckle fights are in Britain and Ireland classed into two kinds, “Gypsy rules” and “all in”. Gypsy rules allow for three knockdowns (kneeling onto one knee when hurt, if I remember correctly about 30 seconds to recover). Gloves are optional and headbutting is allowed (to great effect). “All in” means just what it says (completely no rules, biting etc all allowed) but there is a referee just to stop it (usually two elders of the gypsy community) if the other guy is “out”.
The most famous “all in fighter” who died about ten years ago was “Uriah Burton”. Bartley Gorman says in his book about him. Bartley Gorman says
“when I was sixteen I admired only two fighters. Rocky Marciano and Uriah Burton. Everyone had heard of of Marciano, the world heavy weight champion, who never took a backward step and never lost a fight. But Burton was known only in the world of the travellers (gypsies) and his name uttered in hushed tones. He was an ogre they said. He had the strength of five men. He beat opponents two at a time. He would stop at nothing and fight to the death. He sounded like something from the dark ages more myth than man. Only when I came to know him did I realize the stories were true”.
As for weight diffrences I would say it gets less important over about 210 pounds. As at that weight a good boxer can punch so damn hard it doesn’t matter how big the other guy is.
The most famous bare knuckle fight of all time was in 1810 between the British champion Tom Cribb and Molineux (black ajax) who was a freed American slave. They fought 39 rounds !!! You can read about it here (interestingly in those days stand up grappling was permitted).
[quote=“CanisLupusFamiliaris”]English, motherfucker! Do you read it?
I was just comparing the NAMING of the weight categories.
You should relax.[/quote]
Who was riled up? Not me…Wanna fight? hahahahaha
And my comment/observation was for the underlying point: That weight does matter.
Ozzy: That would depend on the larger mans pain threshold, I would guess. Fights are about who’s better at that given moment or second. I’ve seen guys train in the gym that could stun you with perfect movements and shit like that but in the ring lose it and look loose. It’s the nature of the beast.
Kimbo fights Ray Mercer next week under full MMA rules- I go for Kimbo- he is training smart with the likes of Bas Rutten and Mercer appears to be boxing as usual.
lets hope they can improve his stamina. That should be a really fun fight to watch.
:bravo:
I reckon they should stick him (kimbo) against Tank Abbot for fun. Sometimes for me UFC has gone to mainstream I’m nostalgic for the good old days. Some great fights in those days with Kimo, Tank etc etc
Yeah the skill level has gone up and all but sometimes it is great to see a slug fest. Tank versus cabbage etc etc
Kimo came so close to beating Gracie in the early days but for the pony tail! Wonder how that would of changed the whole UFC thing and BJJ if he had won.
I’m going town a few divisions