Hmm, well if more Taiwanese parents stood up against this then Taiwan wouldn’t be shamed on an international forum like the BBC.
[quote=“MrFantastic”]A math teacher friend of mine will set a class target of 85% for a test. For each percentage point the student is under the target, they get whacked 10 times on the hands with a ruler. So if a kid only got 80%, that’s 50 whacks.
It’s pretty brutal, but the class average went way up.[/quote]
80? My parents pretty much framed those tests. Punished for it? Ha. That’s funny. Shame on you for getting an A! Although when I got 96 in Math in Junior High, my teacer wrote “Sometimes inconsiderate to others”. That’s the only thing my father saw and he got angry at me.
Maybe I’ll poll my students tomorrow. I’m pretty sure Fushing Elementary (on Ren’Ai Circle) in all their prestige for being a hard school is still beating kids. I have seen too many gray-haired elementary and junior high kids from there to believe they have taken a healthier approach to education.
I grew up and was educated in Taiwan, later went to US at 22 and it’s been 20 years now. (oppps…just revealed my age). I was a best student who received privilages but still remember those horror days.
The hitting is not the worst. When we were in school, if someone eats while they walk, they are to stand in front of everyone holding that food in their mouth for hours. Or if you get a low grade, you get verbal abuse such as “What kind of crabby family are you from?” in addition to physically punishment. The government banned it 20+years ago and our teacher got mad, had one student on her knees on the wood-slided chair for the whole class, claiming she’s not afraid of the Ed dept…it goes on and on…getting hit for inferior grades is only the tip of the iceberg. It can be anything if you don’t conform to all the robotic ways, even unintentionally.
Some parents are terrible. They plead to the teachers to beat their kids when they don’t behave. Some students are twisted, they claim they like the beating because it pushes them to work harder.
One of my families now is working for the Human Foundation. A few years ago, he asked his son’s school not to beat him. The result is that his son got isolated with “politeness”, The teacher announced to the whole class that xxx is special (in a tone)and don’t need to receive the hitting. I know some parents who did this were asked to transfer their kids to another school. I also heard that now it is a law, some schools and teachers are asking the parents and students to sign the “discipline” agreement for hitting.
It’s an addiction to violence. I think a 10 step like AA would work.
Fortunately there are more and more parents disagree and voice themselves now. It would take time but there’s hope.
That was a good post.
Hitting is not a good method. Any kind of physical punishment is terrible. I got spanked twice by my parents. It’s not the pain that hurt though. It was emotionally painful. My parents did it to teach me a lesson. They would have never physically hurt me. I got punished for stealing money off my father’s dresser (to buy chips and candy 
).
Also got the strap in elementary school on like one of my first days because I walked on the grass they were growing on the front lawn. And again in grade six. For stealing animal stamps (had them under my shirt - me and another kid). I don’t remember it hurting. It is more humilating than anything. Pluse the strap I got was only with a metre ruler. The guy that did it (vice-principal/gym teacher) did it half heartedly the second time. The principal had him do it and left the room. The other kid cried. I was like “Well, that was nothing.”
Is the punishment in Taiwan really painful? I don’t know the extent of it. In Korea, I think it’s more prominent. They even have TV dramas that show it. The principal whacks their hands with a thick stick when they don’t know answers. To me, though, it doesn’t look like it would be all that painful. Maybe it’s more humiliating or they pretend that it hurts. I also see teachers hit kids with books. Students here regulary hit each other on the back really hard that makes a “thud” sound. Don’t think that’s really painful, but maybe more a comraderie thing. This, however, could be a run off of what happens at home and at their regular schools. Sometimes kids come in with casts or marks but I’m not sure if it’s because it’s kids being kids or they got abused. Or both.
I think more often than not it’s painful, just look at the red marks and swelling immediately after a beating. The worst thing I recall about my childhood discipline was my Dad’s Countdown (to Certain Doom). He’d hold up a hand and count, sometimes even SILENTLY. I never found out what happened when he got to zero (and I wasn’t in front of him, ready to take what’s mine). The funny thing is, now that I recall … I hardly EVER got hit, and I’m SURE the rare spankings I DID receive were not hard at all. I bawled like mad out of fear of the Countdown.
Anyway, of the many processes I use with my students here, I’ve instituted the Countdown. My glare is not nearly as fearsome (unless they’ve REALLY done wrong), and it’s often a silent 3 or 5 count. It’s incredible how quickly they return to their seats, ready to listen and behave, from a simple silent countdown to zero. Of course, by zero, I NEVER hit them, nor do I explode in a tirade of fury. It’s the mere FEAR of what will happen if they’re not back in time that works.
I’m not saying that discipline in the classroom or household should be entirely fear-based, but don’t quickly read my post and deny that some respect, even initially born out of fear, can be functional in such an environment. By no means do I run a classroom of terrified students. It’s just one (of many methods) that can work.
And spending ten hours a day at school is abusive. This does not teach them how to be productive in life.
Some of the little ones in elementary don’t look right sometimes. It’s like you can see evidence of abuse on their faces. Little girls.
One of my engineer students. A 47-year old man who is obviously educated and who has travelled the world, told me that high school students in Korea sleep 4 hours/night. What the fuck’s that?
Maybe I should just change my teaching ways and let them watch movies (middle school students) during class (8 to 9/9:30). Right now I’m playing cards with them. I taught them how to play “Big Old Two”. Maybe I should feel more sorry for them. Maybe buy them pizza a lot. Poor guys.
They do. I know a kid in grade 1 who was threatened with the stick by the teacher if he didn’t get a 100.
Yen-shr-chew-gao-too I don’t know pinying so I just wrote that phonetically (sp?). Anyway it translates into “Strict teacher makes high students”…I learned the expression because I believe it.
I have a few friends back home in the went who teach in “real” schools. They tell me amazing horror stories…and the don’t teach in the “bad part” of town. They teach in normal suburb schools. Student’s regularly tell teachers to go fuck themselves…etc. When the kids get suspended they laugh to their friends “Woohoo! Early vacation…alright!”.
I was practicing phonics with a very low level class O O O, ah ah ah, O ah octopus…that kinda thing. We went around the class reading small 3 letter words and sounding them out. There was this one kid who was very obviously not paying attention and each time he would read his word wrong…and each time I would scold him minorly. But after the third time…I got ready for the fourth time…preparing myself to blow up at him…was I angry? Not really…I’m used to kids like that…but I sure as hell acted angry. Had a few parents watching as well. Anyway, forth time rolls around sure enough the kid doesn’t even have his finger on the right word…I BLOW UP yelling top of my lungs…might have even kicked over a chair…that kinda thing. Some of the parents seemed to disapprove. Funny thing was…5th time he read fine…6th time fine…etc.
After the parents saw the boy go from appearing to be the slowest in the class to reading better than average for that class…they didn’t disapprove anymore 
.
I scolded him the first three times…but only minorly. But after showing psychotic levels of anger (feigned) the kid started reading as good as anyone else. And after that I never needed to yell at him again. And the boy made more of an effort to chit-chat with me…as if he found some new respect for me…or maybe he just wanted to keep me on his good side.
I remember one time I was at a Christian camp…I was a counselor…I was easily the most strict counselor…and also easily the most popular with the kids.
No one respects a push over…not kids…not adults…not anyone.
MY FINAL POINT: The West did away with hitting children a long time ago…and they have some of the most disrespectful students in the world. Students swearing at teachers and giving blow jobs in the bathroom stalls at the age of 12. Here in Taiwan I’ve never met a Junior high student that dates seriously…and the students in my schools do what you say when you say it…and are very polite and considerate to other students as well. Why in God’s name would we want the kids here to be more like the ones in The West?
[i][quote=“Mordeth”]Yen-shr-chew-gao-too I don’t know pinyin so I just wrote that phonetically (sp?). Anyway it translates into “Strict teacher makes high students”…I learned the expression because I believe it.
I have a few friends back home in the went who teach in “real” schools. They tell me amazing horror stories…and the don’t teach in the “bad part” of town. They teach in normal suburb schools. Student’s regularly tell teachers to go fuck themselves…etc. When the kids get suspended they laugh to their friends “Woohoo! Early vacation…alright!”.
I was practicing phonics with a very low level class O O O, ah ah ah, O ah octopus…that kinda thing. We went around the class reading small 3 letter words and sounding them out. There was this one kid who was very obviously not paying attention and each time he would read his word wrong…and each time I would scold him minorly. But after the third time…I got ready for the fourth time…preparing myself to blow up at him…was I angry? Not really…I’m used to kids like that…but I sure as hell acted angry. Had a few parents watching as well. Anyway, forth time rolls around sure enough the kid doesn’t even have his finger on the right word…I BLOW UP yelling top of my lungs…might have even kicked over a chair…that kinda thing. Some of the parents seemed to disapprove. Funny thing was…5th time he read fine…6th time fine…etc.
After the parents saw the boy go from appearing to be the slowest in the class to reading better than average for that class…they didn’t disapprove anymore .
I scolded him the first three times…but only minorly. But after showing psychotic levels of anger (feigned) the kid started reading as good as anyone else. And after that I never needed to yell at him again. And the boy made more of an effort to chit-chat with me…as if he found some new respect for me…or maybe he just wanted to keep me on his good side. - quote)[/i]
[b]I’m sorry, but all you have done here is psychologically manipulate the child into doing what you wanted him to do. It sounds plain old sick to me.
Anyone who needs to show “psychotic levels of anger” to a child may be a bit psychotic himself/herself (not to mention that he/she is acting like a great big bully).
I agree that our systems in the West have lost a lot of sight, and that the kids “rule the school” now…but I think we need to find a happy medium. There are ways to gain the respect of children without using fear, mate…[/b]
[quote=“Indiana”]
[b]I’m sorry, but all you have done here is psychologically manipulate the child into doing what you wanted him to do. It sounds plain old sick to me.
Anyone who needs to show “psychotic levels of anger” to a child may be a bit psychotic himself/herself (not to mention that he/she is acting like a great big bully).
I agree that our systems in the West have lost a lot of sight, and that the kids “rule the school” now…but I think we need to find a happy medium. There are ways to gain the respect of children without using fear, mate…[/b][/quote]
Well, like I said…I wasn’t really all that angry…so you can take your psychotic theory and throw it out the window. Kids respect a strict teacher. You only need to scare the hell out of them once and after that you could use the “count down of doom” method as told above…
You’re right it’s not the best method…the best method is teaching with love, patience and understanding. See how far you get using those and then let me know 
. I always hear other teachers complaining about how there kids speak so much Chinese in the class…and how there kids do this or that. My kids don’t. Simple as that. And when it’s my break time I still have kids crowding around me as I try to read e-mails…etc. I even took a group of the better kids to Leo-Foo Villiage on my day off. The kids like me, respect me, and know not to fuck with me. That’s the same kind of person that would get my respect as an adult.
I had already scolded the kid in the above example three times for the same thing…what was I supposed to do the 4th time? Give him a hug? Continue to look like a flaccid penis with me giving him minor reprimands and him ignoring me? What would you have done Indiana?
Sorry Mordeth, I didn’t mean to imply that you are psychotic… I just had this vision in my head of you screaming the kid’s ear off and knocking a chair over, which I think is OTT.
Raising your voice is one thing…what you described is quite another. I have been teaching in Taiwan for 5 years now, and before I came here I taught in the Middle East, where the kids could be a nightmare. The kids here are little angels compared to what I dealt with in the Mid East. You have to be tough to get the respect of your students, yes. But what you described is not being tough and strict…it is manipulative.
I don’t have discipline problems with my students. I am very tough with them…but I rarely need to raise my voice. I have their respect because I am hard-nosed in other ways. My students know that if they step out of line, there will be repurcussions such as extra homework, writing lines, and maybe a chat with their parents. I have known very few students whereby these methods aren’t effective. And, my students respect me and always want to be around me.
Sometimes, a little chat with a student is the most effective way to deal with things. I had a problem with a new first grader a few months ago who was teaching his classmates how to swear in Japanese and in English. I pulled him aside and had a friendly chat with him, letting him know why it was wrong and that if he did it again, he would be reprimanded. When he turned around to do it again, as kids will do to test the waters, I gave him lines and talked to his Mom. He never did it again, and he understood why he had been punished.
I was raised to fear and respect my father, who yelled at me like you yelled at that kid. Yes, I feared him and did what I could to get his approval. So what, I behaved…but I will never forget how that felt, it has stayed with me all of these years…and I could never do that to another kid in turn. Your students fear you, that’s the bottom line. Is that healthy?
I hear what you’re saying. I don’t think I could have them write lines…as they are so busy as it is. Some of the other teachers give choices…be hit…or do extra homework…kids usually choose to be hit. And in my OTT example I had already raised my voice to the child with no effect…maybe his parents are yellers so it didn’t faze him. And if I can’t affect a child…then I just turn it up a notch…until I do. Manipulative? maybe…but what’s wrong with that? I’m the teacher they’re the students. They should do what I say…and if they don’t…then I’ll do what it takes so that they do.
I’ll give alternative punishments some thought though. Maybe have them write lines. Problem with writing lines is that the punishment is applied at a seperate time to the “crime”. It’s kinda like punishing a dog for something it did an hour ago…pointless. I know with kids they can rationalize and understand why they’re being punished…but part of me thinks it’s better to come down on them while they are doing it. Make the reaction to the action instant. I’ll give it some thought though.
One thought that keeps coming back to me in my own head is…kids in America are horrible…and kids here are angels. Kids in America aren’t hit…kids here are.