Status quo, waiting it out

Got to hand it to old Ma Yong Jeou, he did a fantastic job dealing with that tool on BBC Hardtalk (find it on Youtube)
Interesting statistic he mentioned, something like 85% of Taiwanese people are in favor of the “status quo”, only 15% or so on each side of the fence. That would seem right to me, from what I’ve seen here in my time in Taiwan. Good point he makes - all countries are trading/doing business with China, so what that Taiwan has missiles pointed at them. Does that make any difference at the end of the day?

Granted, he has made a few statements I thought were wrong i.e a few months ago, some bullshit survey was done comparing the corruption between China and Taiwan, where they asked executives in China what they thought about the corruption in China ( what the hell do proviledged Western executives living/working in China know about corruption?!) Ma Ying Jeou actually bought this survey and made statements on it. He should have immediately dismissed it.

No one’s perfect, politicians included.

Probably a fair bit more than your average citizen.

What the hell do prevelidged western executives that only go to China like twice a year know about corruption? Just let them meet 1 Chinese boss… they will have a crash course on corruption in China…

How many of you (westerners) ever stayed in a 5 star hotel in China without giving your name and passport? As far as I know it is required by law… unless the Chinese boss you are meeting is the local law…

I think the point is that asking western executives about China is asking the wrong people. They should be asking Chinese executives…if that could get a straight answer. Actually asking anybody about corruption in China will not get you the truth. You have to look in the state officials’ bank accounts or the state of the environment or the 100s of foreigners queuing for organs.

Look at the survey recently where Taiwan came out as more corrupt than China…that’s impossible, just by living here you will know that. These surveys are GARBAGE.

[quote=“ToGoToTheMoon”]Interesting statistic he mentioned, something like 85% of Taiwanese people are in favor of the “status quo”, only 15% or so on each side of the fence. That would seem right to me, from what I’ve seen here in my time in Taiwan. Good point he makes - all countries are trading/doing business with China, so what that Taiwan has missiles pointed at them. Does that make any difference at the end of the day? [/quote] Well, look at it this way… China’s got nearly 1,000 missiles pointed at Taiwan and a white paper that says if Taiwan declares independence it will use military force to “re-unite” it with the Mainland. And everyone knows China has a rapidly modernizing military. Sure, there’s no reason not to do business with China. But as far as polls or peoples’ thinking about status quo vs independence - you bet those factors have an influence.

Speaking of corp. ethics in China. We (my company), have our employees run college classes on corp ethics and we performed a survey: 75% of Chinese college student thought they had to be dishonest to get by in business…shocking really.

If you are talking about in China that would make them realists or more honest, you would also get the same answer in most countries including Taiwan. In fact, truth be told, most businessmen are dishonest in some way. I think a lot of Asians understand the business world better as it is more pervasive in their society, more based on their own business efforts rather than getting jobs in corporations or Govt. where dishonesty can be passed off to top managers…

Not really. The students themselves were honest, they just felt the environment was such that they would have to do dishonest things or that they would be put into compromising situations.

That said, some students from China are the express reason that my grad school started doing due dilligence / background checks on all incoming students.

Isn’t it the case a large proportion of students overseas are the sons/daughters of corrupt officials…theses survey are meaningless and you cannot draw conclusions from them as the selection group is biased as is the answer according to cultural influence.

As to China influencing people’s opinon about status quo vs. independence, I would think the poll question could easily be worded to remove those outside factors. For example the pollster could simply say “disregard what China might do and just give your true opinion.”

In any case I don’t think anyone would care even a little about what China thinks when they answer those poll questions. People would know they’re not setting national policy but only giving their opinion on what they think.

they also do it, and generelly 70%+ want independence.

You’ve been told countless times that such polls exist. Do you really get something out of faking alzheimers?

Buttercup, so you think that asking a bunch of Western executives working in China about corruption in China and then comparing that to the corruption in Taiwan is a good way to do a study/comparison?

probably that bunch of western executives knows a lot about political corruption at medium-high level, while normal people only know at very low (local) level. It all depends on who these executives have access to.

If they are Italian executives, they will simply compare it to their local corruption, and say “geeee, ite ize so easie ine here”…

You’ve been told countless times that such polls exist. Do you really get something out of faking alzheimers?[/quote]

Oh, I’m sure those polls do exist somewhere. Actually what I’ve heard countless times is that the reason all the major polls in Taiwan show that most people want status quo is because of China. That people don’t actually want status quo but chose that option anyway because of Chinese influence.

I’m kind of tired to have to explain the ridiculousness of that notion too. One thing to try to interpret the results in your favor, quite another to say that people are lying when they answer polls.

These are not overseas students. These are rank and file students from top universities in China. They come from all kinds of backgrounds. To say that these students are sons/daughter of corrupt officials is so yesterday. These are sons and daughters of the new entrepreneurs.

In my mind these surveys are very relevent; these folks will be running China in 5-10yrs.

[quote=“ABC”]Oh, I’m sure those polls do exist somewhere. Actually what I’ve heard countless times is that the reason all the major polls in Taiwan show that most people want status quo is because of China. That people don’t actually want status quo but chose that option anyway because of Chinese influence.

I’m kind of tired to have to explain the ridiculousness of that notion too. One thing to try to interpret the results in your favor, quite another to say that people are lying when they answer polls.[/quote]

What is ridiculous about this? People are asked questions in the context of the real world. This world includes China and all its military treats to Taiwan. Therefore people respond that given the world is the way it is they prefer the status quo/de facto independence. When asked a hypothetical question that removes the real world threat they respond in favor of a hypothetical dejure independence.

There is no reason to interpret this as people lying. They are simply answering different questions.

I’m not sure treats is the right word, but I agree with the rest.

[quote=“ABC”]

Oh, I’m sure those polls do exist somewhere. Actually what I’ve heard countless times is that the reason all the major polls in Taiwan show that most people want status quo is because of China. That people don’t actually want status quo but chose that option anyway because of Chinese influence.

I’m kind of tired to have to explain the ridiculousness of that notion too. One thing to try to interpret the results in your favor, quite another to say that people are lying when they answer polls.[/quote]

The way your logic runs around in circles it’s not surprising you’re tired. However I can say the following again and again, and still be chipper enough for a long hike or another 50 threads:

China is threatening Taiwan. This affects people’s opinions.

I feel great now! I’d say it again if you wanted, but I guess you still wouldn’t get it. Not sure why, it seems simple enough to me and most people I know. :ponder:

Not really. The students themselves were honest, they just felt the environment was such that they would have to do dishonest things or that they would be put into compromising situations.

That said, some students from China are the express reason that my grad school started doing due dilligence / background checks on all incoming students.[/quote]

I’m not sure why you are saying ‘not really’ here, you seem to be agreeing with me. They know they have to be dishonest to succeed in business, as do most businesspeople. Since they mostly come from business backgrounds or state official backgrounds they see it in their daily life.
This is a fundamental propety of business. For instance, if you tell your client that your product, overall, is the best product in it’s category (and you know this to be untrue), you are being dishonest. But you couldn’t sell the product by being 100% honest. That’s marketing and that’s life. In a rough way of saying it, you’ve got about 10-20% leeway from the ‘facts’ that you can get away with and make the sale.
In Chinese society and especially business in China, Guanxi is very important, to get Guanxi you need to do dishonest things such as bribe or fix problems for officials. For instance my wife used to worked with medical doctors in China, to get them to sell the product the distributor does not give them bribes directly, rather the distributor wires the money to their kids bank accounts in Australia. The kids grow up in this type of environment, it’s in their face.