Stray dog problem

Life Pets & Domestic Animals
101

The lady who feed the dogs, did Maoman have some words with her yet?

From these 10 pages of discussion, I have read food source, posture, chase, CNR and kill. What if the various means to an end is applied in steps, from soft to drastic approach.

  1. Remove the food source - ask/tell the lady to feed the dogs somewhere else (maybe need to suggest an alternative place - that other road?).
  2. Make the current territory a bit more uncomfortable for them, with the vinegar spray, followed by the BB gun if they don’t get the point with the vinegar.
  3. This could probably be another activity to discourage their presence, but patience probably start running out now, so I jump to
  4. Call the dog catcher and get the dogs removed.
  5. Keep activity 1-2(3) active.
  6. If another pack moves in, then do the CNR thing, and keep activity 1-2(3) active.

Of course, someone would prefer to swap the point 4 and 6, or keep on repeating point 4, but in terms of reasonable timeframes, I think the approach above would be more effective. Most important I think is to create a more attractive area for the dogs (food source) and make their current area more uncomfortable with less food and more unpleasant experiences.

Dogs should be smart enough to make the right choice under such circumstances, no?

102

Sean, I have nothing but the utmost respect for what you and your organization do. However, you have to remember that there is a difference between what an animal rescuer is willing and able to do with dogs under his care in his facility and what an average guy with other priorities is willing to do to keep aggressive feral dogs away from himself in a particular time and place.

The theories undoubtedly are sound, but you are going to have to convince people that their application involves sufficient economy of effort and time to make them practical for regular people to use in every encounter with problem dogs.

103

Sean, I have nothing but the utmost respect for what you and your organization do. However, you have to remember that there is a difference between what an animal rescuer is willing and able to do with dogs under his care in his facility and what an average guy with other priorities is willing to do to keep aggressive feral dogs away from himself in a particular time and place.

The theories undoubtedly are sound, but you are going to have to convince people that their application involves sufficient economy of effort and time to make them practical for regular people to use in every encounter with problem dogs.[/quote]

Excellent and I completely agree with you. (and I had the check the source three or four times :laughing: )

I would add that Sean might want to become more flexible in dealing with politicians who do need an upfront quick fix that will stimulate his consituency to see the problem as solvable.

Must lie down now. Head is spinning. :smiley:

104

Mine is a quick fix: change your own attitude and behaviour towards dogs, be they feral, stray, or pets, and they will do likewise. It’s in their nature to do so. Don’t forget I also have to deal with feral dogs as well as unwanted pets. If I were to start throwing stones at a dog, I agree that he would probably back off. But now you have created a dog who will be more aggressive to others.

Dogs are dogs are dogs. They understand pack mentality, posturing, body language.

I’ll give you a good example: There are a number of packs of free-roaming dogs in Muzha. I lived there, and saw them almost every day. On many, many occasions I would see a group of dogs charge somebody who had strayed too near to their territory. And I watched the results. Always, the same results followed the same behaviour on the person’s part.

Those who got excited (scared) and made loud noises but showed fear were surrounded and the dogs would appear aggressive towards them, but there were no bites. (“You’d better get outta here or you’re gonna get hurt!”)

Those who ran had their heels nipped. (“And don’t come back!”)

The wise ones who ignored the dogs and walked on confidently completely diffused the situation, and the dogs immediately calmed down. (“He’s not interested nor scared of us; he’s no fun nor threat.”)

Try it. I’m not making this stuff up. I know the difference between pets and feral dogs, and I know the difference between pack mentality and obedience training.

105

Hey Maoman and Stray dog, the thought came to me that you are both trying to fight the same cause. But you are coming at it from different angles.
Couldn’t you put the cnr plan into effect for the males, and then build some wire fences along that road to keep the dogs out? Maybe the residents would go for that. Then you both win.

I think it’s admirable that you want to change something at all.

106

A quick fix for the person, maybe, but not the dog. I see that as something of a problem in your discourse on this topic. We’re talking about a specific incidence of aggressive feral dogs interfering with one’s enjoyment of public spaces. The dogs are causing problems. In some sort of bizarre twist, however, the victim here-- in your view-- is the one who needs reprogrammng and not the dogs. Sorry, but as someone who likely loves animals as much as you, I find that attitude a little patronizing. It really leaves us little common ground for discussion.

IMHO, when I’m faced with dogs who are threatening me, it’s the dogs who need attitude adjustments, not me.

You have to admit that your methods, though great in theory, require substantially more effort, training and time to use effectively than the method suggested as an alternative to simply calling the dog catcher. Pragmatism is what is called for here and not preaching.

107

Throwing rocks at dogs is pragmatic?

I don’t know what else to say. Isn’t throwing rocks an attitude adjustment? We don’t do that all the time. You need to be calm and assertive around dogs - that’s it. If I want a bear to leave me alone, I’m going to lie motionless, not throw rocks, as the experts tell me the latter makes it worse.

Sorry you think I’m patronizing. I’m sharing what I know. I’ll stop.

108

I saw a guy on TV who did just that and the bear literally ripped his face in two.

Might I suggest running downhill, or hiking with a fatter slower partner?

[quote]
I’ll stop.[/quote]
then I’m just gonna start PMing you.

109

[quote=“Stray Dog”]

I’ll give you a good example: There are a number of packs of free-roaming dogs in Muzha. I lived there, and saw them almost every day. On many, many occasions I would see a group of dogs charge somebody who had strayed too near to their territory. And I watched the results. Always, the same results followed the same behaviour on the person’s part.

Those who got excited (scared) and made loud noises but showed fear were surrounded and the dogs would appear aggressive towards them, but there were no bites. (“You’d better get outta here or you’re gonna get hurt!”)

Those who ran had their heels nipped. (“And don’t come back!”)

The wise ones who ignored the dogs and walked on confidently completely diffused the situation, and the dogs immediately calmed down. (“He’s not interested nor scared of us; he’s no fun nor threat.”)

Try it. I’m not making this stuff up. I know the difference between pets and feral dogs, and I know the difference between pack mentality and obedience training.[/quote]Pack of strays outside my house doing the same. I find it so cool to see one old lady walking by there daily completely ignoring the dogs, calmly and showing no signs of feeling threatened. The dogs never bother her. I love that lady. Other people who walk there daily complain that the dogs try to attack them, but I also see them swinging their grocery bags at the dogs, screaming, charging the dogs to try to intimidate them, etc.

I always do what you said when I happen to make strays curious in “their” territory/ when capturing them. It really works.

I don’t see a problem doing the exact same while walking a dog. The other dogs just will not mess with my pack if I show no fear, and no interests to mess with their pack.

This said, some people are deeply scared of dogs, or unaware of the pack mentality, so behaving appropriately is a great challenge to them, of course. Hence, your post being informative, helpful, and not in the least patronizing. Yet, one more hit the pet crusaders have to put up with…

Scaring a dog with a bb gun, stones, sticks, etc is the worse thing you can do. There is nothing more dangerous than a scared stray dog, as far as stray dogs go. One scared dog is not really dangerous; most likely will run away. But a pack of them… You better watch your step, and your moves. I feel for anyone else wandering down that area after Maoman has effectively scared the dogs shitless with his bb gun.

I lived in Banff National Park for ten years, and I encountered at least a dozen bears every summer. Black bear, run and fight if you have to. (they do not eat meat, so they fight to kill/protect themselves)Brown bear, run if you can, and play dead if the bear catches up to you. Grizzly, never run. Drop whatever you have on you ie a back pack, or your jacket, and walk slowly backward. If the bear charges, play dead or you will die. You may be mauled badly anyways, but if you do not lie motionless, the bear will toy you around until you do lie motionless against your will.

110

[quote=“ironlady”]While Taiwan is hardly the quintessential third-world starving country, still its resources are limited, AND it is the Taiwanese who decide how those resources will be used. The vast mass of Taiwanese, not a few people who are concerned about humane handling of animals. I think that it is safe to say that traditionally, humane handling of animals is not high on the list of Chinese virtues, and this thought persists in many places in Taiwan. You think it’s wrong; they think it’s normal. That’s culture.[/quote]Being respectful to women wasn’t so high on the list either, back in the fifties, in the western world. But things did change, thankfully because some people stood up for what is right. Things will change in terms of handling animals, too. Things are already changing.

From what I read in your post, you seem to agree that handling animals humanely is the right thing to do. So when do we start? How about right here in this thread? How about not promoting shooting dogs with a bb gun for starters?

PS: this post is posted with nearly 6 hours interval from the post above. And I’m addressing another poster altogether. Please do not merge these two posts, Maoman.

111

I don’t feel that stinging a dog’s flanks with a plastic pellet when that dog is in a position to potentially attack a child or a pet dog on a leash is inhumane, and I’m afraid you’re unlikely to convince me that it is.

When you’re talking about a situation where small children and household pets are in jeopardy, when are we going to get around to the right of the child not to be disfigured by a dog bite? God forbid a stray dog should have to endure a few seconds of mild discomfort to prevent that sort of thing. Far better to wait until a kid gets mauled and see what should have been done.

112

[quote=“ironlady”]

When you’re talking about a situation where small children and household pets are in jeopardy, when are we going to get around to the right of the child not to be disfigured by a dog bite? [/quote]I suppose that’s one more reason not to condition dogs to do just that(to become more agressive) by hurting them. In this case, if Maoman feels that this is likely to happen, IMOHO, he’d be a fool to take his child near these dogs if the best he can think of is to shoot the dogs with a bb gun.

The problem of strays in Taiwan is a long standing, and dramatic. To use counter-productive methods in order to solve this problem will not only make things more difficult for other people, but for the dogs, too. To address problems such as this problem constructively, and humanely as you suggested is best, it requires making the right choices and making compromises. Perhaps a good compromise here would be for Maoman to not go in that area anymore if his plan is to simply aggravate the conditions for everyone else, his own child, and the dogs.

113

No, that’s only the best solution from the point of view of not doing anything that might discomfit, inconvenience or annoy a stray dog in any way, no matter how temporarily – just have people to totally surrender the area to them.

From Maoman’s point of view, that’s absurd. He, his daughter and his dog should never leave their apartment, then? Outside belongs to the stray dogs, so just deal with it? That is not a solution.

It’s great to have ideas, folks, but you have to provide pragmatic solutions that work in the real world, as has been said. Time to make some compromises to get more people on board with you. No one’s asking you to kill every stray dog on the island, but it’s unrealistic to think that people are willing to effectively made prisoners in their own homes because of aggressive strays.

114

[quote=“ironlady”]No, that’s only the best solution from the point of view of not doing anything that might discomfit, inconvenience or annoy a stray dog in any way, no matter how temporarily – just have people to totally surrender the area to them.

From Maoman’s point of view, that’s absurd. He, his daughter and his dog should never leave their apartment, then? Outside belongs to the stray dogs, so just deal with it? That is not a solution.

It’s great to have ideas, folks, but you have to provide pragmatic solutions that work in the real world, as has been said. Time to make some compromises to get more people on board with you. No one’s asking you to kill every stray dog on the island, but it’s unrealistic to think that people are willing to effectively made prisoners in their own homes because of aggressive strays.[/quote]I think other solutions have been plentiful. But what you want is an immediate solution, to a long standing problem. Naturally, your methods will fail at best, or make things worse.

Also, the solutions proposed by Sean have been proven to work in the real world, as you put it, that’s why reputable organizations such as the WHO vouch for the same.

And BTW, people who are willing to shoot dogs with bb guns are less likely to ever be on board with us, and if they are, they’d better be open to severe criticism.

115

I’ve stayed back from this conversation up until now, but I have to chime in. I’m a dog lover, I hate seeing dogs suffer, and I get sad when I see dogs (EDIT lol) die in movies.

But dogs aren’t people, and to pretend that you can ever “condition” dogs that have been released into the wild is delusional. Even thinking about the responsibility of human society conditioning wild dogs to be a certain way, or not be a certain way, is ridiculous. Some dogs may very well retain a certain degree of “manners” after being thrown out by bonehead owners. But most don’t, and are no different than packs of any other animal save the fact that their tendencies in nature are not usually harmful to humans. “Usually” isn’t good enough. When the dogs get to be territorial in any area where humans need to be, I believe they need to be killed.

I’m sorry, but it’s the reality of the situation. If there were packs of wild wolves running around town it would be a very obvious situation, if only because chances of actual human casualties are higher. Wolves are every bit as intelligent as dogs, so I have the feeling would solicit just as much of Bobepine’s compassion as dogs.

I respect that compassion, but it badly needs to be tempered with a degree of practicality and perspective.

116

Maybe the use of the word “conditioning” is not the best choice of words. Instead of saying “condition the dogs to be aggressive.” Let’s say “instill fear into the dogs” instead. That is not ridiculous. OTOH, comparing strays to wolves when there is no record that the dogs have actually bitten anyone doesn’t add up. Wolves are dangerous wild animals, and the majority of strays are tamed domesticated animals.

I would have the same level of compassion for wolves, they are awesome animals. But like I said in my first post in this thread, problem dogs may have to be removed/destroyed. I’m sure wolves would fit the bill if they were roaming on the streets of Taipei. Remember that the dogs did not bite anyone, but that the chances that they will bite people, if we instill fear into them, are a lot greater. That is not very practical, and it’s out of perspective, IMO.

117

I think some in this thread are making too big of a deal out of a proposal to shoot plastic pellets at feral dogs that are threatening peoples’ pets as well as the people themselves. I think these individuals are simply being too idealistic and refusing to see things from a pragmatic perspective. It may surprise some, but for many the well being of the strays comes a distant second to the well being of themselves, their pets and loved ones. A relatively minor pain stimulus to force aggressive dogs to back off and leave the family pets etc alone is not excessive, nor is it cruel. It’s a form of defense against the behaviour of dogs who were not put there by these individuals, are not their responsibility and, in reality, should not be roaming around in packs on public land. Perhaps there are better training methods for dogs displaying this behaviour, but those advocating their use are refusing to accept or acknowledge that these methods take more effort, time and training than Joe public walking in a park is going to realistically be willing or able to employ every time he is accosted by a pack of semi wild strays.

I think methods that do not permanently harm or kill the animals are appropriate forms of self protection from aggressive animals. Yes, you are inflicting a certain amount of pain. I’m not advocating random acts of cruelty, nor am I advocating violence. However, if a man were threatening or attacking you, would you not fight back? Why not so for dogs?

118

[quote=“Stimpy”]I think some in this thread are making too big of a deal out of a proposal to shoot plastic pellets at feral dogs that are threatening peoples’ pets as well as the people themselves. I think these individuals are simply being too idealistic and refusing to see things from a pragmatic perspective.[/quote]Well, if I read correctly, Stray Dog was saying that it wasn’t pragmatic to fire BB pellets at dogs. That it might work very temporarily, but that it would lead to more aggression from those dogs.

I agree that being hit by a BB pellet is not the worst thing in the world, but there is a valid question as to whether it really is effective. I don’t know what the answer is. Stray Dog seems to have read quite a bit of research about these kinds of things; perhaps if he has time he could provide some links. I do feel that if we are talking about pragmatic solutions we should make sure that they really are pragmatic.

119

Remember too, that I’m not looking to get involved in a cause. I just want to be able to walk where I want, when I want, without looking over my shoulder, “posturing”, spending a lot of money or time, and waiting 6 years, 6 months, or even 6 weeks doesn’t interest me. 6 days for the problem to go away is ok.

I guess if anyone is really concerned about these dogs they can go and try to catch them (good luck!), neuter them, and try to adopt them out. Please don’t bring them back if you can at all help it.

120

If you remove dogs from their area, those you didn’t catch - the ‘wilder’ ones - will breed. Others will move in and breed. You could kill again, and more breeding will occur. Before it would have occured naturally, you will have created feral dogs where abandoned pets once lived.

If you have truly aggressive dogs, remove them - but read what those with experience have to say, because they know why the dogs are aggressive, how it can be stopped, and how you may just make it worse if you do what first comes to mind. But better to neuter the ones you have, who will keep new ‘unknown’ dogs at bay. I would be interested to know if those in favour of killing and stoning are basing their comments on the advice of experts or if it’s the first thing that comes into their head. If the advice of experts were to kill, kill, kill and stone, stone, stone I would have little to say on this thread.

At least no one has suggested pitchforks and torches yet. :wink: