Stringing men along? (From "Dating People You Can Barely Comm.."

[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]
The flip-side of this situation is like when, back in the day, I knew a Taiwanese woman and I told her that I didn’t want her to be my girlfriend, but I would fuck her. I explicitly stated that if she came to my apartment, that meant she was coming for sex, otherwise she wasn’t allowed to come to my apartment. However, even if I fucked her, she wasn’t going to be my girlfriend. Yet she still went psycho xiaojie on me about the whole thing. Silly bitch.[/quote]

Whoa, dude! Take a compassion pill! That seems a bit harsh, IMHO.

[quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]
The flip-side of this situation is like when, back in the day, I knew a Taiwanese woman and I told her that I didn’t want her to be my girlfriend, but I would fuck her. I explicitly stated that if she came to my apartment, that meant she was coming for sex, otherwise she wasn’t allowed to come to my apartment. However, even if I fucked her, she wasn’t going to be my girlfriend. Yet she still went psycho xiaojie on me about the whole thing. Silly bitch.[/quote]

Whoa, dude! Take a compassion pill! That seems a bit harsh, IMHO.[/quote]
His wording is a bit harsh, but he does have a valid point. :2cents:

I’ve been in relationships in Taiwan where to an outsider it may have seemed as if we couldn’t communicate. My son’s mother being a case in point. I usually speak English to her, and she doesn’t really speak that much English. However, she replies in Chinese and we have no problem communicating that way.
Come to think of it, my son does the same thing. I speak English, he understands and blabbers back in Chinese.

When I try this with my school manager it never works. The poor woman understands so little English that I’m forced to speak Chinese to her anyway.

Then there was the Taiwanese teacher I went out with who grew up in Singapore, did her degree at NTU and her MA at Cambridge, England. She spoke with a beautiful English accent (quite sexy coming from a native Taiwanese woman), but I never really got WTF she was on about half the time. Speaking the same language doesn’t necessarily mean you can communicate, and speaking very little of each others languages doesn’t mean that you can’t. Not in my experience anyway.

Big John: That’s precisely my point though. Even when I explicitly stated what was and wasn’t going to happen several times, she still chose to hear what she wanted to hear. Indeed, I should add some extra information to this. This wasn’t a spur of the moment situation. This wasn’t even in person. Also, she had a couple of days to think about it, and had to travel from Taipei to Taoyuan to do it. At some level, I’d almost have to say that, given how much time and distance she had to cover, she actually wanted it but suffered from buyer’s remorse afterwards or something of the sort, hence her reaction to me.

Some people in this thread seem to be implying that 1) humans are self-aware all of the time, 2) that their speech, actions and thoughts are consistently aligned.

I’m saying that 1) is not true. There’s a massive body of evidence to support this in various sub-fields of psychology such as evolutionary psychology, behavioural economics, heuristics and so on. The entire fields of advertising and marketing are built around using/manipulating the irrational behaviour of humans. That’s why good salesmen, pick up artists and even magicians are able to have it all over us. Moreover, they’re actually able to make us think we were in perfect control throughout the entire process. Those guys are more self-aware than most. For most of us, we’re reacting, not acting, and we’re reacting with our mammalian brains at best, and quite often our reptilian brains. Humans are far, far less self-aware than they actually realise.

I’m also saying that 2) is not true, and that people are actually highly irrational. Two really big examples of this are what happened in the recent GFC (or any economic crisis or asset bubble for that matter) and the co-existence of massive dieting and exercise industries on the one hand, and a massive junk food industry on the other. Also, and I’m not saying this to have a go at the poster (because this happens to all of us, including me), but there is a poster in this thread who recently started a thread about her inability to perfectly align her thoughts and behaviour, even when self-aware of that dissonance.

Imagine how well things work out when we’re not even self-aware (which is more often than we think).

[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]
The flip-side of this situation is like when, back in the day, I knew a Taiwanese woman and I told her that I didn’t want her to be my girlfriend, but I would fuck her. I explicitly stated that if she came to my apartment, that meant she was coming for sex, otherwise she wasn’t allowed to come to my apartment. However, even if I fucked her, she wasn’t going to be my girlfriend. Yet she still went psycho xiaojie on me about the whole thing. Silly bitch.[/quote]
Whoa, dude! Take a compassion pill! That seems a bit harsh, IMHO.[/quote]
His wording is a bit harsh, but he does have a valid point. :2cents: [/quote]
I also agree with this as I’ve experienced it too, first hand. Once upon a time when I was a handsome, strapping, young Marine…ok…well maybe not handsome… Anyway, you know the story about a girl in every port? Well, it’s true, at least it was for me. There were two kinds of girls. The girls that are for party and playtime and they are very well aware of the deal, and nice girls who want to have a serious relationship and/or get married. I never did enjoy or like the party playtime girls, but I didn’t want to lie to the “nice” girls or give them the illusion of a relationship to get them into the sack. So, I would always preface any pre-sexual activity with, "Hey, I really like you, I enjoy your company and companionship, I would like to spend my off time with you traveling, eating out, clubbing, and of course having sex, as often as possible. However, I do not want to mislead you into thinking that I’m looking for a steady girlfriend or a wife or anything that’s permanent. When my tour of duty is finished (about 3 years usually in one station), I’ll be moving on and I guarantee that you won’t be coming with me. I’m married to the Corps and I have no time or interest in marriage or having a family. If you decide to spend time with me, I’ll always treat you well, I won’t sleep with any other girls, and I will pay for everything when we go out. But, only engage in this “relationship” if you understand and are willing to abide by the rules that the relationship will not progress beyond friendship and or a casual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship which is guaranteed to end.

Sounds good, right? Straight forward, honest and upfront, polite and without any kind of intended deception. Laying down the ground rules clearly before laying pipe! Well, it sounds good on paper, but the reality is that every single “nice” girl who accepted my “relationship” proposal ended up turning pyscho-小姐 on me near the end of our “relationship”. After I received my transfer orders and as the time drew near for me to have my household goods packed up and moved to my new permanent change of station, these girls’ behavior would radically change. I would be accused of being a nasty bastard, a manipulator, a cold-hearted snake, a black-hearted abuser of women with no conscience. Even after I reminded them of our agreement, they would say things like, "But, so much time has passed and I thought you would change your mind, we get along so well, you’ve met my family and they have expectations, etc. etc. blah blah blah. One nutter even had the audacity to track down my mother and phone her to complain about me and ask my mother to intervene on her behalf! The fourth and final “nice” girl I tried to have this type of relationship with actually signed a physical piece of paper which I titled “Relationship Agreement Contract” that I had written up outlining the explicit details of my proposed relationship with her so that there would be absolutely no misunderstandings or miscommunications of any kind. When the relationship was coming to an end and she started turning psycho-小姐 on me like the previous girls, I took out the contract and reminded her of it. She matter of factly stated that it was no longer valid because two years had already elapsed and also it wasn’t a legally binding contract because it hadn’t been notarized by an attorney or a public notary. She then took the contract from my hands and tore it up into little pieces and flushed it down the toilet. “What contract? What agreement?” :loco: So, after I went through exactly the same type of scenario for the fourth time, I swore off “nice” girls and I only had relationships with the party playtime girls. It wasn’t my preference, but I never had one issue with a party playtime girl and I avoided all the grief of any “nice” girl who thought I had done them wrong even though I had been upfront and straight with them from the get go.

I personally don’t feel that this affliction is limited to only women. I’ve know guys who started a relationship with a girl who was very clear and upfront with them about her desires to keep things casual with no possibility of it ever becoming permanent. When it became clear that the hope that, “She will see what a great guy I am and change her mind” failed to materialize, then they themselves turned into a pyscho-先生 stalker-type who felt they’d been done an injustice by “That heartless bitch!” :loco:

I guess with matter of the mind, heart, and soul…all bets are off! :bow:

Northcoast Surfer: Great story! There’s no recommend button in this forum, unfortunately.

Jeez, the double standards on this thread are unbelievable.

You know what, here in the world of adult relationships, some men really do find some women interesting and fun enough to be friends with, amazing though that may seem to some of you. Beautiful and ugly women alike. Men and women also act responsibly towards friends who they suspect have feelings for them too.

Petrichor: Where’s the double standard? I’ve said that both men and women are not self-aware (let alone of what the other party may be thinking or feeling) and act irrationally as both givers and receivers/perceivers of information. BigJohn’s reaction to my story was a classic in this situation. Being completely up-front initially is perceived as being cruel, and so people will do anything to avoid telling the truth (and act consistently on that knowledge) to themselves or others. Of course, that only leads to further anguish later. People have all these indirect ways of letting others down gently, but let’s be honest here, does anyone really think “it’s not you, it’s me” really means that? Of course it’s not “me”. It’s always about egocentrism. Of course, few people will really admit to being egocentric because they’re meant to be humble and all the rest of it, so they persist in lying to themselves and others. That’s the little game we play in our society. That’s why we find it really shocking when we encounter guys recklessly driving BMWs here without any regard for anyone else because it is all about “them”. Everyone is all about themselves, which is why there’s only a difference in degree, not in kind, between Donald Trump and that boring fuck sitting next to you talking about how his kid made a great papier mache cow last week. Whereas if we’re that person talking about how our kid made a great papier mache cow last week and the other person is listening intently and hasn’t even said a single word, those people are the most fascinating conversationalists in the world. It is always about me and what I want to see and hear.

On your first point, sure, but if they (men) find them (women) attractive also, then they want to bang them unless either party is off limits for some reason. The difference between humans and most animals is that they have a mating season. We evolved to be up for it at any opportunity. This informs a great deal of our more “advanced” behaviours.

As for your second point, I’d disagree, and I’d suggest that another, recent thread here suggests otherwise also. It may not be the intention of either party to deceive or manipulate the other, but it happens inadvertently all the time.

:bravo:

GiT, I thought I’d missed something here too … but I read back carefully and I can’t see any double standards. The fact that the stories are about men being upfront with women about their non-interest in marriage doesn’t imply a double standard; it’s just that the authors happen to be men. I get the feeling that the people who wrote those stories have been in ‘shoe on the other foot’ situations and been just fine with it. Everyone understands, and nobody has a problem with it. There are many different sorts of relationships, and there are certainly cultures that would find our ‘western’ ideas about marriage, male/female roles etc. at best bizarre and unfathomable, and at worst immoral or stupid.

I think that’s exactly what the above posters were trying to say. But you can’t help what other people feel, and those girls were quite entitled, at any time, to dump the guy they weren’t getting anywhere with, and move on. They chose not to.

youtube.com/watch?v=NXnhWthZ_k4

It’s kind of coincidental, but as I was perusing the CNN website, I came across two recent articles which address the expectations aspect of casual relationships and how things end up changing and also a newer trend for signing relationship agreements called “Co-Habitation Contracts”. Check them out. Very interesting.

[quote]
My Take: There’s nothing brief about a hookup

By Dannah Gresh, author of What Are You Waiting For? The One Thing No One Ever Tells You About Sex.
May 31, 2011

Recent studies have revealed some good news in the sex culture among college co-eds: there are more virgins among them now than was the case a few years ago.

These days, 29% of females and 27% of males between ages 15 and 24 claim to be virgins, up from 22% of both sexes in 2002, according to the Centers for Disease Control.

But among the college students who aren’t abstaining, we’re seeing more sex, thanks to casual hookups. According to recent research from Stanford University, the majority of college co-eds are still having sex, with an average 9.7 sexual partners for men and 7.1 for women.

Thankfully, we have more scientific information about casual sex than our parents did when they drove their Volkswagen buses to Woodstock for a dose of the sexual revolution. They wanted to think—as many of those cruising along the New Millennium highway still do—that we can engage in the act of sex without the emotion.

“Emma wants a relationship without the relationship. She just wants the sex,” actress Natalie Portman said of her role in the recent movie “No Strings Attached.” “…I’m tired of seeing girls who want to get married all the time and that’s all they’re interested in. I think there is a wider vision of how women can conduct their lives and what they want.”

Sounds so easy.

Just like the hippie culture found a pill that conveniently removed the “inconvenience” of pregnancy, today’s hookup culture believes it has found a recipe for removing the inconvenience of emotion: friends with benefits.

Scientifically, though, that’s impossible. We know that thanks to what neuroscientists have learned about a walnut-sized mass in the brain called the deep limbic system.

The deep limbic system stores and classifies odor, music, symbols and memory. In other words, it’s a place for romance, capable of processing a splash of cologne on your lover’s neck, a particular iPod playlist or a bouquet of red roses.

The brain chemicals associated with romance and sex wash over the deep limbic system during a wide variety of sexual experiences, according to research from the Medical Institute for Sexual Health.

Holding hands, embracing, a gentle massage and, most powerfully, the act of sexual intercourse work together to create a cocktail of chemicals that records such experiences deep into the emotional center of your brain.

It’s why we remember sexual experiences and images so clearly.

One of the critical neurochemicals released during sex is dopamine. Dopamine makes you feel good; it creates a sense of peace and pleasure. Anytime your body experiences pleasure, whether it’s good for you (working out) or bad (doing crystal meth), the limbic system gets washed in dopamine.

In essence, it is a “craving” chemical. It makes you want more. It creates addiction. Dopamine attaches you emotionally to the source of pleasure.

Another critical sex hormone is oxytocin, the subject of recent books like “The Chemistry of Connection: How the Oxytocin Response Can Help You Find Trust, Intimacy and Love.” The chemical is released during sexual expression. A tiny dose is downloaded during intimate skin-to-skin contact; a much bigger dose is released during orgasm.

In fact, the only other time as much oxytocin is released as during orgasm is when a mother is breastfeeding her baby. The mother feels its release and is bonded to her child, and the baby’s brain learns for the first time to enter into relationship by connection. I’d say the chemical’s job is to bond us for life.

The knowledge of sexual bonding is nothing new.

“Do you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body?” the apostle Paul wrote in the New Testament. “Do you know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, ‘The two will become one flesh.’”

Christian author Lauren Winner translates those verses this way: “Don’t you know that when you sleep with someone your body makes a promise whether you do or not?”

The bottom line is that you get “addicted” and “bonded” to the people you have sex with, even if they are “just friends.”

That helps explain why Stanford sex researcher Paula England has said that “Some people are hooking up a bunch of times with the same person but are not calling it a relationship.” Maybe these people are not as unattached to their “friends” as they would like to think.

Here’s where the hookup culture starts to be a problem. What happens if you get caught up in the friends-with-benefits-game and have multiple partners? What happens when the partners you’ve become addicted and bonded to are gone?

You experience withdrawal symptoms in the emotional center of the brain.

Young women, especially, are likely to spiral into a depression when the source of their addiction isn’t interested in another hookup. A 2003 study from the conservative Heritage Foundation found that 25.3% of sexually active teenage girls experienced depression, compared to 7.7% of sexually abstinent girls.

The study found that 14.3% of sexually active girls attempted suicide, compared to 5.1% of their virgin peers.

And when a person graduates from the hookup scene and tries to have an intimate relationship with the person they want to spend the rest of their life with, things can get complicated.

There are already a lot of other people he or she will be addicted to, and that creates more chaos for the exhilarating but challenging task of building a life of intimacy together. The Kinsey Institute notes that one of the five factors that predict infidelity in a relationship is “having had a high number of prior sex partners.”

Casual sex is happening. We shouldn’t ignore it. That’s especially true of the faith community. But when we talk about it, we should use science. There’s nothing biologically brief about a hookup.

In the interest of full disclosure, my motivation here is my Christian faith. I believe sex to be an incredible gift from God, meant to transcend the physical to discover something emotional and spiritual with another person.

But since my faith may alienate some of you from my message, I ask you not to think too hard about religious differences. Stick to the facts.

The good news is that we are seeing an ever-so-small rise in the number of young people choosing abstinence.

What are they waiting for?

Some mind-blowing pleasure and an incredible intimacy–without all the baggage of a broken heart.[/quote]

[quote]
‘Cohabitation Agreement’ – The Prenup For Unmarried Couples

BOSTON (CBS) May 30, 2011

Hear ‘Prenup’ and a wealthy couple on a second marriage might come to mind.

Now more unmarried couples are drawing up similar agreements to protect themselves if their relationship comes to an end.

Jewel Landers has been living with her boyfriend for 23 years.

Although they are still going strong, she has thought about what would happen if they ever split up.

“I would hope that if something were to happen to us that I would get something out of it without having to take him to court,” she said.

A poll of divorce attorneys revealed an increasing number of unmarried are ending up in court when their relationships come to an end.

To prevent problems, many are signing what’s called a “Cohabitation Agreement.”

This is a legally binding document for couples who share a home, but not a name.

A cohabitation agreement outlines expectations no matter how a relationship ends.

It can cover issues like health insurance, repayments of debt, and what to do with all kinds of property.

Attorney Linda Lea Viken added, “What happens if you buy a house together? Who gets the house if it is not in both names? Also, furniture or other things that are not titled and not in anyone’s particular name.”

Relationship coach Dr. Anne Renee Testa views these agreements as a sign of the times.

Over the past two decades, the number of unmarried couples living under the same roof has almost doubled.

“A couple that is interested in being intelligent about their relationship should do something like this because it absolutely clears the air,” said Dr. Testa.

Dr. Testa believes a cohabitation agreement should not be viewed as negative for a relationship.

“It’s not about one person controlling the other. It’s not about feeling as though the romance is taken out of it. If anything, they should go out there and have a glass of champagne afterwards and celebrate.”

These documents can range in their level of complexity. Some couples even outline what should happen to pets if their relationship breaks up.

[/quote]

Theroteically speaking maybe it is not clear. Easy to say that the girls or guys should have moved on. But you never know whether you will change someones mind or not.

Personally, I do not like to waste my time with women that are not interested or do not want to have sex with me. I want to hang out and have sex on the weekend. I prefer to be left to my own vices during the work week.

[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”][quote=“bismarck”][quote=“BigJohn”][quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]
The flip-side of this situation is like when, back in the day, I knew a Taiwanese woman and I told her that I didn’t want her to be my girlfriend, but I would fuck her. I explicitly stated that if she came to my apartment, that meant she was coming for sex, otherwise she wasn’t allowed to come to my apartment. However, even if I fucked her, she wasn’t going to be my girlfriend. Yet she still went psycho xiaojie on me about the whole thing. Silly bitch.[/quote]
Whoa, dude! Take a compassion pill! That seems a bit harsh, IMHO.[/quote]
His wording is a bit harsh, but he does have a valid point. :2cents: [/quote]
I also agree with this as I’ve experienced it too, first hand. Once upon a time when I was a handsome, strapping, young Marine…ok…well maybe not handsome… Anyway, you know the story about a girl in every port? Well, it’s true, at least it was for me. There were two kinds of girls. The girls that are for party and playtime and they are very well aware of the deal, and nice girls who want to have a serious relationship and/or get married. I never did enjoy or like the party playtime girls, but I didn’t want to lie to the “nice” girls or give them the illusion of a relationship to get them into the sack. So, I would always preface any pre-sexual activity with, "Hey, I really like you, I enjoy your company and companionship, I would like to spend my off time with you traveling, eating out, clubbing, and of course having sex, as often as possible. However, I do not want to mislead you into thinking that I’m looking for a steady girlfriend or a wife or anything that’s permanent. When my tour of duty is finished (about 3 years usually in one station), I’ll be moving on and I guarantee that you won’t be coming with me. I’m married to the Corps and I have no time or interest in marriage or having a family. If you decide to spend time with me, I’ll always treat you well, I won’t sleep with any other girls, and I will pay for everything when we go out. But, only engage in this “relationship” if you understand and are willing to abide by the rules that the relationship will not progress beyond friendship and or a casual boyfriend/girlfriend relationship which is guaranteed to end.

Sounds good, right? Straight forward, honest and upfront, polite and without any kind of intended deception. Laying down the ground rules clearly before laying pipe! Well, it sounds good on paper, but the reality is that every single “nice” girl who accepted my “relationship” proposal ended up turning pyscho-小姐 on me near the end of our “relationship”. After I received my transfer orders and as the time drew near for me to have my household goods packed up and moved to my new permanent change of station, these girls’ behavior would radically change. I would be accused of being a nasty bastard, a manipulator, a cold-hearted snake, a black-hearted abuser of women with no conscience. Even after I reminded them of our agreement, they would say things like, "But, so much time has passed and I thought you would change your mind, we get along so well, you’ve met my family and they have expectations, etc. etc. blah blah blah. One nutter even had the audacity to track down my mother and phone her to complain about me and ask my mother to intervene on her behalf! The fourth and final “nice” girl I tried to have this type of relationship with actually signed a physical piece of paper which I titled “Relationship Agreement Contract” that I had written up outlining the explicit details of my proposed relationship with her so that there would be absolutely no misunderstandings or miscommunications of any kind. When the relationship was coming to an end and she started turning psycho-小姐 on me like the previous girls, I took out the contract and reminded her of it. She matter of factly stated that it was no longer valid because two years had already elapsed and also it wasn’t a legally binding contract because it hadn’t been notarized by an attorney or a public notary. She then took the contract from my hands and tore it up into little pieces and flushed it down the toilet. “What contract? What agreement?” :loco: So, after I went through exactly the same type of scenario for the fourth time, I swore off “nice” girls and I only had relationships with the party playtime girls. It wasn’t my preference, but I never had one issue with a party playtime girl and I avoided all the grief of any “nice” girl who thought I had done them wrong even though I had been upfront and straight with them from the get go.

I personally don’t feel that this affliction is limited to only women. I’ve know guys who started a relationship with a girl who was very clear and upfront with them about her desires to keep things casual with no possibility of it ever becoming permanent. When it became clear that the hope that, “She will see what a great guy I am and change her mind” failed to materialize, then they themselves turned into a pyscho-先生 stalker-type who felt they’d been done an injustice by “That heartless bitch!” :loco:

I guess with matter of the mind, heart, and soul…all bets are off! :bow:[/quote]

Perfectly respectable agreement from a guys point of view. All up front and impersonal. Its straight fun and sex baby…all the way.

But to women you ARE abusing them, abusing their emotions. They want the sex probably as much as you, but they want love to and if there is to be an ending they want to be the ones to end it. And when they do want to end it, they can be more heartless then you.

Such is life and the basic inequality among the sexes.

And yes as you mentioned, sometimes the shoe is on the other foot.

It was your use of profanity coupled with the insult to the girl at the end of your post that I found harsh. You showed no sympathy, in fact you displayed contempt for her. Or at least, that was the impression that your words conveyed.

[quote=“tommy525”]Perfectly respectable agreement from a guys point of view. All up front and impersonal. Its straight fun and sex baby…all the way.

But to women you ARE abusing them, abusing their emotions. They want the sex probably as much as you, but they want love to and if there is to be an ending they want to be the ones to end it. And when they do want to end it, they can be more heartless then you.

Such is life and the basic inequality among the sexes.

And yes as you mentioned, sometimes the shoe is on the other foot.[/quote]

I think it takes a certain kind of person to emotionally detach themselves during sex (not implying that it’s a bad thing, it’s just a certain personality trait that not all of us have and some of us think we have until we actually try it haha) and especially when it’s for an extended period of time with the same person. (Like in the situation NC Surfer mentioned.)

As much as some people like to think and be upfront and impersonal at first, after a while I think it’s a lot harder to deal with all those underlying emotions of attachment and feeling wanted and close to someone. Which at some point leaves one half of the former unattached impersonal friends with benefits being dissatisfied the state of affairs and evolving into a psycho xiaojie or super stalker to try to cope with the situation.

Just my :2cents: Also the reason I try to avoid casual hookups… :whistle:

Contempt is part of what I was trying to convey because she was a silly bitch. If I tell a person there’s a lion behind a door and they still open the door and let the lion out and it bites them, then what does that make them? Should I feel sympathy for someone in that situation? I told her upfront what the score was. Should I have treated her like a child (despite her being seven years older than I was) and assumed she couldn’t use her own brain? At what point do we look at people and say that they’re responsible for their own self-destruction?

Sausage fest alert! :banana:

We need a men’s forum.

[color=#0000BF]Why?[/color] :laughing:

:thumbsdown: And you wanted to sleep with a woman whom you found contemptible??? Or you didn’t want to sleep with her but didn’t mind doing it, if she came over. :hand: And they call the woman Psycho - where’s the vomit smiley?

I think GIT will say she was fine until he tried to end it.

Edit: Unless he employs, with women, a twist on Groucho Marx’s “I wouldn’t belong to any club that would accept me as a member”.

Why do they need a women’s forum?