Suggestions on "internationalizing" Taiwan's living environment

[quote=“mprey”]If you speak Chinese someone and get English back it unfortunately usually means that your pronunciation and/or grammar isn’t very good. In 3 years here I have not had one instance where people insist on speaking English with me when I speak Chinese with them. In fact I love that more and more store clerks, serving staff and so on immediately speak Chinese to me without making a big deal about it.

As has been pointed out before, the idea that Taiwanese have to adapt to foreigners and not the other way around is ridiculous. The difficulty of Chinese is vastly overstated and in places that cater to tourists, whether sightseeing spots or restaurants or otherwise, there are already adequate amounts of English. Try suggesting to the owner of a small bar in Andalusia that he should provide English menus, you will rightly get mocked. But apparently in Taiwan it’s completely fine to suggest that. A lot of entitlement here when this is already the most convenient, safest and easiest environment for Western foreigners in the whole of Asia.

Let’s fix the real issues, let’s raise the bar for foreign employment - kick out the unqualified English teachers, but create incentive to attract actually qualified foreign talent for various industries. Make it easier for foreigners to start businesses. Stuff like that.[/quote]

Not in my experience. Plenty of museums have little to no English translations, staff who struggle to speak English etc. Major tourist spots such as Taroko are still difficult for non-Chinese speakers to navigate if not on a tour. My Chinese is adequate for day to day activities, but over the years the only reason I’ve been able to see and do as much as I have in Taiwan is due to the help of Chinese-speaking friends.

From his 3 years in Taiwan he’s lecturing us. :thumbsup:

Why did you mention Westerners? Is English not the international language of the world? Got a chip on your shoulder?
Why did you bring up English teachers as well?

Claiming Taiwan is the easiest environment in Asia for Western foreigners is ludicrous also.

I don’t know whether this counts as “internationalizing”, but my two biggest wishes are:

1. Fix the reservation system for east coast train tickets
Currently you can book a large number of tickets without putting down a deposit and then just cancel them later. All tickets are always gone ten minutes after they become available (at two in the morning or something). People (travel agents? tour groups?) write computer programs to just reserve everything in sight in case they want them. Require a small non-refundable downpayment.

2. Fix the reservation system for mountain cabins
Similar to above, but for the giant annoying hiking clubs (and their porters, and their cooks …). They could do something about permits while they’re at it.

That’s called CORRUPTION Brendon. There are some news articles online about how the puyuma express is perennially booked. Hualien councillors and train staff have linked with travel agents to steal public tesources for their own benefit! And yes there are programmers that just automatically books 100s per minute using IDs that have been ‘borrowed’ for the purpose. It would be very easy to stamp out this practice by issuing tickets in the same manner as an airline ticket under persons name only non changeable. They don’t because 1000s seats per day equals thousands of hotel and tour packages equals millions ntd per day revenue (not only from upwelling the tickets but from the enforced package purchase).
As usual the fine applied to the travel agents abusing the system is risible…something like 1000,000 ntd and no criminal
Prosecution. Some have been caught multiple times.

thenewslens.com/article/28214

You can buy the tickets on Taobao easier than on TRA’s website as long as you pay the corruption fee!
Without booking the package it’s almost impossible to get a train ticket. Shame.

I’m sure the same kind of thing is going on with hiking permits.

[quote=“headhonchoII”]From his 3 years in Taiwan he’s lecturing us. :thumbsup:

Why did you mention Westerners? Is English not the international language of the world? Got a chip on your shoulder?
Why did you bring up English teachers as well?

Claiming Taiwan is the easiest environment in Asia for Western foreigners is ludicrous also.[/quote]

I don’t see a lot of Chinese in Florida. Why should there be so much English in Taiwan

How is that relevant?

The Taiwan government is thinking of ways to make things a little easier for outsiders, and we’ve been specifically asked for suggestions.

If the Florida state government was asking for suggestions about how to make Orlando more attractive to Chinese tourists then yeah, more Chinese would be high on the list.

That is one of the most ill-judged comments I have ever seen on this website, and scarcely deserves a response. But here, anyway, for you and any others whose poor understanding may need a little nursing:

English is at present the one and only international language. It is the lingua franca of international communication and commerce. Non-native speakers of English all over the world learn English as a second language, which is a core part of schooling almost wherever there is any kind of schooling worth having.

Chinese does not possess any such status. It is an important language, and more and more people are making an effort to learn it, but its international status doesn’t come anywhere near to that of English. One day, perhaps, if China’s economic power and influence grows enormously, Chinese may come to compete with English for top status as an international language, but it hasn’t come anywhere near to doing so yet.

Taiwan needs to be able to attract foreigners to visit and stay here. The government well understands how essential this is, primarily for its economic development, but also for other aspects of its development. It has mapped out policies that it believes can help it to meet this need, and these form a core element of Taiwan’s national development policy.

There are four main kinds of foreigners that it needs to attract: (1) business investors, (2) skilled workers, (3) tourists and (4) students. It’s hard to see how anyone with the slightest understanding of how things are both inside and outside Taiwan could need any kind of elaboration on this situation, but nonetheless:

(1) Taiwan is competing with just about every other country in the world for the precious foreign investment that fuels economic growth, job creation, rising incomes and a better standard of living for its own people, and heightened international importance. Such investment is even more important for Taiwan than for most other countries because Taiwan has almost no natural resources that it can tap into to feed its economic growth, but is almost entirely dependent on foreign trade as its driver of growth. It was foreign investment in Taiwan, with its accompanying transfer of technology and know-how from foreign investors, that enabled Taiwan to achieve its economic take-off half a century ago, and then sustain it. Taiwan desperately needs more such investment now, and the government is constantly striving to devise plans and projects that can make it more attractive to foreign investors, whether by establishing itself as an “Asia-Pacific Regional Operations Center”, setting up “Free Economic Pilot Zones”, reforming laws and regulations so as to make it easier to invest and do business here, signing free trade agreements, joining economic and trade groups, or whatever means it thinks feasible. Creating a more foreigner-friendly environment is just one part, but an important part, of meeting that need. If foreign executives and entrepreneurs find it relatively easy to live and function in Taiwan, they are more likely to choose this as an investment location. If they consider it to be a difficult place for themselves and/or key foreign staff to live and work because of a major language barrier and other difficulties, they are less likely to opt for investing in Taiwan, but instead choose one of the many other countries, both close to and far from Taiwan, where the regulatory and living environment is much friendlier to foreigners: think Singapore and Hong Kong for a start.

(2) Taiwan is suffering from a severe shortage of high-grade workers, abilities and expertise in many sectors of industry. This is caused in part by the shortcomings of its education system, which is failing to provide enough people with the kinds of knowledge, attributes and skill-sets needed by an advancing economy in the 21st century. It is also caused in part by a massive brain-drain, the worst of any country at or near Taiwan’s level of development, with tens of thousands of its best brains leaving to work in China or further afield because of better pay and career advancement prospects outside Taiwan. In today’s so-called “globalized” world, where the cream of the international workforce is highly mobile and will go to live and work in whichever place offers them the best combination of remuneration, benefits, and quality of life, every country is competing to lure the world’s best and brightest to their shores. Taiwan has hitherto failed miserably in this regard, as is evident from a comparison of the tiny number of white-collar foreigners who are living and working here versus the corresponding numbers in Singapore, Hong Kong and China, or in any advanced or advancing country on any other continent. Taiwan is usually at the bottom of a long list of locational choices for the crème-de-la-crème of non-Taiwanese talent, and it vitally needs to address that situation by making it considerably easier and more attractive for foreigners to live here, or else it will lag and further and further behind its competitors, and its economy will continue to lose its pep and stagnate as it has for the past decade and more. And then, all too soon, it can bid a final goodbye to its standing as one of Asia’s Four Little Dragons, and hello to companionship with rotting and dysfunctional backwaters like the Philippines.

(3) Tourism is the biggest global industry, providing more jobs than any other industry, and a primary contributor to the economies of many countries at all levels of development. Expansion of the tourism industry is a very important element of Taiwan’s overall economic development, and has been recognised as such by successive governments, green and blue, which have drawn up major policies for promoting its development, poured huge resources into plans and projects for this, and put it at the forefront of economic development targets. If a country wishes to successfully attract large numbers of international tourists from anywhere outside the Chinese-speaking world, it must be able to provide adequate English information and services for visitors who cannot speak, understand or read Chinese. Plenty of other countries have managed to achieve this, including countries with fewer resources and less advantageous conditions for doing so. If Taiwan fails to do at least the minimum that is called for in this regard, it will never become a major tourist destination (except for those dreadful hordes from across the traits), and will lose out on the massive rewards that it stands to gain by doing so.

(4) Fourth and last, there are the students. Once again, all advanced countries compete to attract international students to their universities and other educational institutions. Success in this regard carries a wide range of benefits that are self-evident enough not to need spelling out here. In Taiwan’s case, it particularly needs to attract as many of those students as possible so that it can integrate them into its society and induce them to stay to fill gaps in its workforce after they graduate. It also needs them to take up places in its universities and colleges that are left empty by the falling number of local enrolments as a consequence of the country’s lowest-in-the-world birth rate, a situation that is going to get worse with each passing year. It needs to be able to absorb young immigrants as early as possible, so that they are better able to assimilate into local society and contribute a whole lifetime of work and tax-paying to a country that must seek to rebalance one of the world’s fastest ageing populations, and do so by importing young foreigners to compensate for its own people’s reluctance to have more children, before it has a massive demographic time-bomb blowing up in it face. Universities and other institutions of higher education in non-English-speaking countries are competing to attract the best students by offering more and more courses in English, as well as by making it as easy as possible for international students to come to, live in and remain in their countries. Taiwan needs to do likewise if it is to have a chance of gaining a good share of this high-value human resource pool.

So, in summary: Far from being an act of generous but unnecessary philanthropy towards foreigners, the creation of a more foreigner-friendly environment is essential to the advancement of Taiwan’s own interests. It is something that Taiwan’s central and local governments had better get busy on and do as well as they possibly can, or else Taiwan will be the loser as thousands upon thousands of foreigners, who could be drawn here and contribute greatly to the country and its people, will instead choose to go to some other place where they can enjoy a more accommodating reception, and that other place can reap the benefits of their presence.

4 Likes

Great post. Thanks for expressing these points so passionately and eloquently!

Guy

Wow man, wish we still had the recommend button!

[quote=“Omniloquacious”]its economy will continue to lose its pep and stagnate as it has for the past decade and more. And then, all too soon, it can bid a final goodbye to its standing as one of Asia’s Four Little Dragons, and hello to companionship with rotting and dysfunctional backwaters like the Philippines.

[/quote]

I admire your optimism, I really do.

Taiwan is already a rotting, dysfunctional backwater just like the Philippines - it just doesn’t know it yet. What kind of investment is Taiwan looking for? Western companies don’t build factories overseas anymore. This is the 21st century - they outsource. Even the Taiwanese don’t invest in Taiwan. The low-tech corporations look to Vietnam and other 3rd world countries, while the high tech firms move as much of their operations as they are allowed to over to Mainland China.

If the island can’t offer competitive manufacturing, what else does it have to offer that other countries don’t already have? Taiwan’s universities are crumbling and have a 1950s mindset. Taiwan’s air safety record is abominable. It’s environmental record is shameful. The police and judicial system are risible. Typhoons. Earthquakes. Diplomatic isolation. An unfinished civil war.

Prettying up the place by improving the English isn’t going to make any difference. Taiwan is on a clear path to join Asia’s other bottom-feeders, and it’s only a matter of how long that takes.

What Taiwan desperately needs is overseas suckers to buy up its farcically overpriced real estate so the paper profits the banks and corporations have been writing up over the last decade can be turned into actual money. Because it’s obvious the next generation can’t create the wealth to keep the real-estate scam going.

In the meantime, Taiwanese girls can maybe brush up their housekeeping skills. Those skills will be useful when they join the Filipina maids scrubbing floors in the Middle East.

Please monkey, stopping beating around the bush. Tell us what you really think! :slight_smile:

I must however object to this point. In the 1950s, the university system in the west was rapidly ascending, taking on major research projects, and getting ready for large scale expansion with a rapidly growing student population. The current university system in Taiwan looks nothing like this. :stuck_out_tongue:

Guy

1 Like

Another great post by Omniloquacious.

I think a lot of us westerners who live here see the huge potential for more tourism from English speaking independent travelers. But I suspect the tourism bureau simply does not understand this market. If I could make a specific recommendation it would be to get a consultant like, gee, I don’t know, Mucha Man?

I have had problems communicating in English in places which really have no excuses for not being able to communicate in English. Once I went to the information desk at the Taipei Main Station (the one at street level) and asked for a train timetable. The young lady, who enunciated her English very well, asked me when I wanted to catch a train. I replied I didn’t want to catch a train. I just wanted a timetable. She told me to wait and then she started tapping stuff into her computer. 5 minutes later she was still tapping and I was still waiting. Was she typing up a new timetable? Eventually her supervisor came over and whispered something to her. She whispered back to him. Then he turned to me and asked me if he could help me. I told him I wanted a train timetable. He asked me when I wanted to catch a train. I told him I didn’t want to catch a train, I just wanted a timetable. He then pointed to a rack in front of the desk which held timetables.

Having no English is more convenient than service like this because it saves a lot of time.

And it’s not as though I was requesting something bizarre like deep fried poodle testicles on a bed of reindeer moss. (Oh, I’m sorry but we don’t do food! You’ll have to go upstairs to the food court for your French-Swedish fusion cuisine! :slight_smile: ) I was at a train station asking for a timetable. Did it not ever occur to the young lady that those pieces of paper sitting almost directly under her round little nose had not only a purpose but also a name in English, and that one day some stupid big pointy nose might come along and request one, in English? :astonished: Did it not occur to her that it might be slightly unwise for someone so deeply afraid of conversing in the language native to the Britannic Isles to hide from the advancing tide of Anglophonic barbarians in the nations aspirationally international capital and busiest train station under a large sign emblazoned, in English, with the words INFORMATION DESK? That is not a good place to hide. She should have thought about Jiayi and the turkey rice industry, or something.

I have quite a few students who get emails in English from their customers and they come and ask me what the emails mean. Actually, they don’t show me the entire email they just write down the offending sentence. Often I cannot understand the sentences because they have no context. They would never ask their customers what the meaning is. I would be worried about that if I was one of their customers.

[quote=“afterspivak”]Please monkey, stopping beating around the bush. Tell us what you really think! :slight_smile:

I must however object to this point. In the 1950s, the university system in the west was rapidly ascending, taking on major research projects, and getting ready for large scale expansion with a rapidly growing student population. The current university system in Taiwan looks nothing like this. :stuck_out_tongue:

Guy[/quote]

For what it’s worth, Taiwan’s universities have had reasonable success in attracting African students. That proves Taiwan’s universities are better than nothing :cactus: (at least I think that’s what it proves).

Or are all those students on scholarships as part of Taiwan’s money-for-ties diplomatic deals in Africa?

Another suggestion: hire a team of qualified native English speakers to review all current translations on Government websites etc. Poor attempts at English create a terrible impression and make Taiwan look amateurish and ineffective. Also, standardise all pinyin to one type on street signs etc. Reading one name on Google and another on the street leads to confusion and, again, looks unprofessional.

This^
Dear Lord, this!

Can someone point me in the direction of a Taipei bus information android app in English? :notworthy:

BusTracker Taipei. The screenshots are in Chinese but there’s a setting that changes everything to English. And it’s never been wrong yet.

Update the TRA website. I have two main issues with it.

  1. You have to select the area, then the station name. This is confusing to first timers, and is annoying after that. Most foreigners are not going to know which area hualien station is in. It should have the option to just select the station name and display where the station is located.
  2. Booking tickets online should have the ordering changed. currently it asks you for your name and passport information to reserve a ticket, then checks the availability and notifies you of success or failure. It should check if the tickets are available first, put a 2 to 5 minute hold on the ticket once you decide to buy or reserve, enter your name and passport and then notify you of success.

That is one of the most ill-judged comments I have ever seen on this website, and scarcely deserves a response. But here, anyway, for you and any others whose poor understanding may need a little nursing:

English is at present the one and only international language. It is the lingua franca of international communication and commerce. Non-native speakers of English all over the world learn English as a second language, which is a core part of schooling almost wherever there is any kind of schooling worth having.

Chinese does not possess any such status. It is an important language, and more and more people are making an effort to learn it, but its international status doesn’t come anywhere near to that of English. One day, perhaps, if China’s economic power and influence grows enormously, Chinese may come to compete with English for top status as an international language, but it hasn’t come anywhere near to doing so yet.

Taiwan needs to be able to attract foreigners to visit and stay here. The government well understands how essential this is, primarily for its economic development, but also for other aspects of its development. It has mapped out policies that it believes can help it to meet this need, and these form a core element of Taiwan’s national development policy.

There are four main kinds of foreigners that it needs to attract: (1) business investors, (2) skilled workers, (3) tourists and (4) students. It’s hard to see how anyone with the slightest understanding of how things are both inside and outside Taiwan could need any kind of elaboration on this situation, but nonetheless:

(1) Taiwan is competing with just about every other country in the world for the precious foreign investment that fuels economic growth, job creation, rising incomes and a better standard of living for its own people, and heightened international importance. Such investment is even more important for Taiwan than for most other countries because Taiwan has almost no natural resources that it can tap into to feed its economic growth, but is almost entirely dependent on foreign trade as its driver of growth. It was foreign investment in Taiwan, with its accompanying transfer of technology and know-how from foreign investors, that enabled Taiwan to achieve its economic take-off half a century ago, and then sustain it. Taiwan desperately needs more such investment now, and the government is constantly striving to devise plans and projects that can make it more attractive to foreign investors, whether by establishing itself as an “Asia-Pacific Regional Operations Center”, setting up “Free Economic Pilot Zones”, reforming laws and regulations so as to make it easier to invest and do business here, signing free trade agreements, joining economic and trade groups, or whatever means it thinks feasible. Creating a more foreigner-friendly environment is just one part, but an important part, of meeting that need. If foreign executives and entrepreneurs find it relatively easy to live and function in Taiwan, they are more likely to choose this as an investment location. If they consider it to be a difficult place for themselves and/or key foreign staff to live and work because of a major language barrier and other difficulties, they are less likely to opt for investing in Taiwan, but instead choose one of the many other countries, both close to and far from Taiwan, where the regulatory and living environment is much friendlier to foreigners: think Singapore and Hong Kong for a start.

(2) Taiwan is suffering from a severe shortage of high-grade workers, abilities and expertise in many sectors of industry. This is caused in part by the shortcomings of its education system, which is failing to provide enough people with the kinds of knowledge, attributes and skill-sets needed by an advancing economy in the 21st century. It is also caused in part by a massive brain-drain, the worst of any country at or near Taiwan’s level of development, with tens of thousands of its best brains leaving to work in China or further afield because of better pay and career advancement prospects outside Taiwan. In today’s so-called “globalized” world, where the cream of the international workforce is highly mobile and will go to live and work in whichever place offers them the best combination of remuneration, benefits, and quality of life, every country is competing to lure the world’s best and brightest to their shores. Taiwan has hitherto failed miserably in this regard, as is evident from a comparison of the tiny number of white-collar foreigners who are living and working here versus the corresponding numbers in Singapore, Hong Kong and China, or in any advanced or advancing country on any other continent. Taiwan is usually at the bottom of a long list of locational choices for the crème-de-la-crème of non-Taiwanese talent, and it vitally needs to address that situation by making it considerably easier and more attractive for foreigners to live here, or else it will lag and further and further behind its competitors, and its economy will continue to lose its pep and stagnate as it has for the past decade and more. And then, all too soon, it can bid a final goodbye to its standing as one of Asia’s Four Little Dragons, and hello to companionship with rotting and dysfunctional backwaters like the Philippines.

(3) Tourism is the biggest global industry, providing more jobs than any other industry, and a primary contributor to the economies of many countries at all levels of development. Expansion of the tourism industry is a very important element of Taiwan’s overall economic development, and has been recognised as such by successive governments, green and blue, which have drawn up major policies for promoting its development, poured huge resources into plans and projects for this, and put it at the forefront of economic development targets. If a country wishes to successfully attract large numbers of international tourists from anywhere outside the Chinese-speaking world, it must be able to provide adequate English information and services for visitors who cannot speak, understand or read Chinese. Plenty of other countries have managed to achieve this, including countries with fewer resources and less advantageous conditions for doing so. If Taiwan fails to do at least the minimum that is called for in this regard, it will never become a major tourist destination (except for those dreadful hordes from across the traits), and will lose out on the massive rewards that it stands to gain by doing so.

(4) Fourth and last, there are the students. Once again, all advanced countries compete to attract international students to their universities and other educational institutions. Success in this regard carries a wide range of benefits that are self-evident enough not to need spelling out here. In Taiwan’s case, it particularly needs to attract as many of those students as possible so that it can integrate them into its society and induce them to stay to fill gaps in its workforce after they graduate. It also needs them to take up places in its universities and colleges that are left empty by the falling number of local enrolments as a consequence of the country’s lowest-in-the-world birth rate, a situation that is going to get worse with each passing year. It needs to be able to absorb young immigrants as early as possible, so that they are better able to assimilate into local society and contribute a whole lifetime of work and tax-paying to a country that must seek to rebalance one of the world’s fastest ageing populations, and do so by importing young foreigners to compensate for its own people’s reluctance to have more children, before it has a massive demographic time-bomb blowing up in it face. Universities and other institutions of higher education in non-English-speaking countries are competing to attract the best students by offering more and more courses in English, as well as by making it as easy as possible for international students to come to, live in and remain in their countries. Taiwan needs to do likewise if it is to have a chance of gaining a good share of this high-value human resource pool.

So, in summary: Far from being an act of generous but unnecessary philanthropy towards foreigners, the creation of a more foreigner-friendly environment is essential to the advancement of Taiwan’s own interests. It is something that Taiwan’s central and local governments had better get busy on and do as well as they possibly can, or else Taiwan will be the loser as thousands upon thousands of foreigners, who could be drawn here and contribute greatly to the country and its people, will instead choose to go to some other place where they can enjoy a more accommodating reception, and that other place can reap the benefits of their presence.[/quote]

"Taiwan needs to be able to attract foreigners to visit and stay here. The government well understands how essential this is, primarily for its economic development, but also for other aspects of its development. It has mapped out policies that it believes can help it to meet this need, and these form a core element of Taiwan’s national development policy. "

Taiwan needs to up its English agenda? Tell that to China which scaled back on their English teaching over the last year. Tell that to Japan which has no English skills. Taiwan can survive without needing to attract people from outside.

Paperjohn wants Taiwanese living standards to go backwards by them living in a cocoon, then he’ll be happy. :loco:
Keep up with the brainless two line replies paperjohn!!