Taipei Times: We don't want no foreigners working for us!

Yes…and if only the average ROC citizen had an excellent command of written English…

Well, at least it provides more work for the foreign copy editors.
It is also one of the reasons there are so many mistakes in the English papers in Taiwan. Fixing copy where almost everything is wrong is no easy task. Even when the reporter does in fact write English quite well, still, almost everything is just a little bit off.

[quote]There are many types of jobs back home that are also reserved for citizens, apart from the obvious government sector. And I know that several western countries don’t allow foreigners to be hired for a job unless it can be shown that a citizen couldn’t be found to fill the position. :2cents:[/quote]You stated conditions for obtaining a work permit. I repeat: Not all non-citizens need a work permit. These non-citizens have as many work rights as citizens. And back home it would be illegal to advertise jobs based on age, gender, and nationality. It’s legal to require that candidates are legally allowed to work.

I assume from the replies that is it legal in Taiwan to discriminate on basis of nationality. Taiwanted.com is still carrying adverts that discriminate on the basis of gender. We all know how common it is for schools to discriminate according to race.

[quote=“bismarck”][quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”]Is this still legal in 2010 ?

[quote]The Taipei Times is looking for the following talented people

News Reporter

* Excellent command of both oral and written English and Chinese
* College graduate
* Experience in news-gathering preferred
* [b]Open to R.O.C. nationals only[/b]
* Knowledge of Taiwan's political scene [/quote] [taipeitimes.com/News/Jobs](http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/Jobs)[/quote]

There are many types of jobs back home that are also reserved for citizens, apart from the obvious government sector. And I know that several western countries don’t allow foreigners to be hired for a job unless it can be shown that a citizen couldn’t be found to fill the position. :2cents:[/quote]

Bullshit.
The only requirement that can be made is that they be legally employable, which encompasses Green Card holders in the US and Landed Immigrants in Canookistan, neither group of which contains nationals (citizens) of those countries

They could just advertise all legally and all and then just call up people they want in the USA and other more PC places. Still not gonna get your ass hired if you aint what they wanna hire?

:unamused: Yeah, and getting a Green Card is as easy as walking over to the AIT and they’ll just hand anyone one…

[quote]For any work to be performed in the United States, immigration law requires private and public employers to hire only individuals who are eligible to be employed. Those individuals are:

* A [color=#FF0000]citizen[/color] (either by birth or naturalization) or national of the United States,
* [color=#FF0000]An alien assigned by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (CIS), Department of Homeland Security, to a class of immigrants authorized to be employed[/color] (aliens who are lawfully admitted for permanent residence by INS are the largest class of aliens in this category), or
* [color=#FF0000]An individual alien who is expressly authorized by CIS to be employed[/color].[/quote]

So it’s not like any foreigner can apply. There are still restrictions.

Aviation Safety Engineer (Damage Tolerance Technical.

In other words, [color=#FF0000]US Citizens ONLY[/color]…

Aviation Safety Inspector (Operations)

In other words, [color=#FF0000]US Citizens ONLY[/color]…

Senior Project Engineer / Manager

[quote]Requirements

* Must have a BS or MS in Mechanical Engineering.
* Should have at least 5 years of project management, and 5 years of design engineering experience.
* Must have proven leadership skills to manage project teams from beginning to end.
* Must possess very good communication skills (verbal, written, and presentation).
* Support purchasing, production, quality control, testing and sales, in meeting contracts and customer needs and expectations.
* Must possess strong project planning and cost management skills.
* Must be methodical and highly organized.
* Must have solid skills in 3D modeling and drafting.
* Knowledge of structural and thermal analysis is a plus.
* Proficiency in SolidWorks is required. Experience in  COSMOSWorks is a plus. 
* Must possess sound engineering judgment to mitigate program (cost, schedule, and technical) risks.
* Experience with military contracts and specifications. 
* Must be familiar with typical applicable codes/standards, such as ASME, ANSI, AWS, etc.
* [color=#FF0000]US citizenship is a strict requirement for the job. Non-US citizens will not qualify.[/color][/quote]

[quote=“bismarck”]:roll: Yeah, and getting a Green Card is as easy as walking over to the AIT and they’ll just hand anyone one…

[quote]For any work to be performed in the United States, immigration law requires private and public employers to hire only individuals who are eligible to be employed. Those individuals are:

* A [color=#FF0000]citizen[/color] (either by birth or naturalization) or national of the United States,
* [color=#FF0000]An alien assigned by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (CIS), Department of Homeland Security, to a class of immigrants authorized to be employed[/color] (aliens who are lawfully admitted for permanent residence by INS are the largest class of aliens in this category), or
* [color=#FF0000]An individual alien who is expressly authorized by CIS to be employed[/color].[/quote]

So it’s not like any foreigner can apply. There are still restrictions.

Aviation Safety Engineer (Damage Tolerance Technical.

In other words, [color=#FF0000]US Citizens ONLY[/color]…

Aviation Safety Inspector (Operations)

In other words, [color=#FF0000]US Citizens ONLY[/color]…

Senior Project Engineer / Manager

[quote]Requirements

* Must have a BS or MS in Mechanical Engineering.
* Should have at least 5 years of project management, and 5 years of design engineering experience.
* Must have proven leadership skills to manage project teams from beginning to end.
* Must possess very good communication skills (verbal, written, and presentation).
* Support purchasing, production, quality control, testing and sales, in meeting contracts and customer needs and expectations.
* Must possess strong project planning and cost management skills.
* Must be methodical and highly organized.
* Must have solid skills in 3D modeling and drafting.
* Knowledge of structural and thermal analysis is a plus.
* Proficiency in SolidWorks is required. Experience in  COSMOSWorks is a plus. 
* Must possess sound engineering judgment to mitigate program (cost, schedule, and technical) risks.
* Experience with military contracts and specifications. 
* Must be familiar with typical applicable codes/standards, such as ASME, ANSI, AWS, etc.
* [color=#FF0000]US citizenship is a strict requirement for the job. Non-US citizens will not qualify.[/color][/quote][/quote]

This is a joke right? You are comparing civil service jobs and hightly skilled Engineering jobs dealing with military contracts in the US with a Reporter job with an English language news paper in Taiwan? :loco: Why don’t you just point out that no one not born in the US, citizen or not, cannot be president? :unamused:

Well, there were other jobs like accountants, veterinarians etc that were the same. I simply used the above ones because their links worked whereas the other ones had been moved. :unamused:

half. cocked. again.

Besides, I have a friend that worked as an engineer in the defense industry in SA and now works in the same industry in the UK. An SA expat friend in Taiwan’s brother works for a defense contractor in Canada (he is a naturalized citizen, though). And I know several ex Saffa naval officers that now work on subs and surface vessels as officers in the Aussie Navy.

The point is that in western countries (not just in Taiwan) they also sometimes advertise positions based on nationality. I’ve proven it with links. Can you prove that they don’t?

In Switzerland it is required that prospective employers prove they attempted to hire a Swiss national for any job before opening the hiring process to non-citizens eligible for work permits. Even then, the employer is restricted to first hiring from the ‘old EU’, meaning the founder states, before he can hire from elsewhere.

I know it already seems like the blue newspapers have their content handed to them directly from Xinhua but would you want to have card-holding PRC reporters working for the TT or ROC nationals? There is discrimination at work here but it’s not necessarily aimed at Westerners in particular or even other Asians. It could just as easily be there for the reason of keeping out the citizens of our ugly neighbor. Of course they couldn’t just print “No Chinese welcome”, now could they? :wink:

[quote=“redwagon”]In Switzerland it is required that prospective employers prove they attempted to hire a Swiss national for any job before opening the hiring process to non-citizens eligible for work permits. Even then, the employer is restricted to first hiring from the ‘old EU’, meaning the founder states, before he can hire from elsewhere.

I know it already seems like the blue newspapers have their content handed to them directly from Xinhua but would you want to have card-holding PRC reporters working for the TT or ROC nationals? There is discrimination at work here but it’s not necessarily aimed at Westerners in particular or even other Asians. It could just as easily be there for the reason of keeping out the citizens of our ugly neighbor. Of course they couldn’t just print “No Chinese welcome”, now could they? :wink:[/quote]
A voice of reason! Thank you! :bravo:

I don’t know anything about Swiss imigration policy but when you say ‘non-citizens eligible for work permits’ are you talking about landed imigrants? Is there even such thing is landed imigrant status in Switzerland? Or, are you referring to foriegn national with just a work visa?

The US has the same type of policy. When I was working as an Engineer, even under NAFTA, my company could only get me a visa if they could demonstrate that my position could not be filled by an American worker. It works the same in reverse. However, if the applicant in question is a landed imigrant then they have full employment rights.

While having some PRC national working at the TT is humerous, it would be preferable to have him working at the TT instead of having him working in some high tech firm or at a military contracter.

The Swiss have different visa categories, and some immigrants have the worst situation of all. For example someone with a refugee resident permit is not allowed to work in her/her stated profession for I think 5 years after arrival. They are allowed to take up other work in order to support themselves but so as to discourage economic migrants from taking advantage of that permit status they don’t allow them to do what would make them the best living. IOW, they are pretty serious about protecting their own workers. This is why most the taxi drivers in Switzerland are Pakistani lawyers or Turkish social workers who can understand directions in four languages.
A regular migrant with a resident permit may apply for an open work permit as we can here, but again they should not be employed until a proper and documented search was carried out to find a Swiss citizen to do the job.

It’s far from a cut-and-dried thing; it’s a pretty complicated area of U.S. law, and at this time, at least, I’m not willing to do several days’ worth of research and writing about it. But here are a few glimpses, in an effort to respond to your remarks:

[quote=“bismarck”] :unamused: Yeah, and getting a Green Card is as easy as walking over to the AIT and they’ll just hand anyone one…[/quote] In the U.S., in some cases, you don’t even need a green card to be protected against discrimination.

[quote]The Office of Special Counsel for Immigration Related Unfair Employment Practices (“OSC”) investigates the following types of discriminatory conduct under the anti-discrimination provision of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. § 1324b:

Citizenship or immigration status discrimination with respect to hiring, firing, and recruitment or referral for a fee by employers with four or more employees. Employers may not treat individuals differently because they are, or are not, U.S. citizens or work authorized individuals. U.S. citizens, recent permanent residents, temporary residents, asylees and refugees are protected from citizenship status discrimination. Exceptions: permanent residents who do not apply for naturalization within six months of eligibility are not protected from citizenship status discrimination. Citizenship status discrimination which is otherwise required to comply with law, regulation, executive order, or government contract is permissible by law.

National origin discrimination with respect to hiring, firing, and recruitment or referral for a fee, by employers with more than three and fewer than 15 employees. Employers may not treat individuals differently because of their place of birth, country of origin, ancestry, native language, accent, or because they are perceived as looking or sounding “foreign.” All U.S. citizens, lawful permanent residents, and work authorized individuals are protected from national origin discrimination. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has jurisdiction over employers with 15 or more employees.[/quote]–U.S. Justice Department Web Site, at URL justice.gov/crt/osc/htm/Webtypes2005.php

[quote]Employers who impose citizenship requirements or give preferences to U.S. citizens in hiring or employment opportunities also may violate IRCA [my note: IRCA stands for Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986].[/quote]–U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Web Site, at URL eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

[quote=“bismarck”][quote][color=#FF0000]Only United States citizens and nationals[/color] may be appointed in the competitive civil service[/quote][/quote] I won’t argue with that.

[quote=“bismarck”][quote]Under Executive Order 11935, [color=#FF0000]only United States citizens and nationals[/color] (residents of American Samoa and Swains Island) may compete for, and be appointed to, competitive service jobs. With Office of Personnel Management approval, agencies are [color=#FF0000]permitted to hire non-citizens when there are no qualified citizens available[/color]. [color=#4000FF]A non-citizen hired in the absence of qualified citizens may only be given an excepted appointment, and does not acquire competitive civil service status.[/color] He or she [color=#4000FF]may not be promoted or reassigned to another position[/color] in the competitive service, [color=#4000FF]except in situations where a qualified citizen is not available[/color]. The non-citizen may be hired only if permitted by the appropriations act and the immigration law. [/quote][/quote] I won’t argue with that, either.

[quote=“bismarck”][quote]For any work to be performed in the United States, immigration law requires private and public employers to hire only individuals who are eligible to be employed. Those individuals are:

* A [color=#FF0000]citizen[/color] (either by birth or naturalization) or national of the United States,
* [color=#FF0000]An alien assigned by the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (CIS), Department of Homeland Security, to a class of immigrants authorized to be employed[/color] (aliens who are lawfully admitted for permanent residence by INS are the largest class of aliens in this category), or
* [color=#FF0000]An individual alien who is expressly authorized by CIS to be employed[/color].[/quote]

So it’s not like any foreigner can apply. There are still restrictions.[/quote] Yes, there are, but as noted above, there are protections as well, and I don’t think immigrants have as many protections and remedies here as they do in the U.S., as indicated by my quoted matter above.

[quote=“bismarck”][quote]Aviation Safety Engineer (Damage Tolerance Technical.
[color=#FF0000]We are not accepting applications from non-citizens.[/color][/quote]
In other words, [color=#FF0000]US Citizens ONLY[/color]…[/quote]
The Aviation Safety Engineer job is a Federal Aviation Administration, i.e., a U.S. Government, job, according to the Web page you linked to. This sort of law applies:

[quote]. . . the Court in Ambach v. Norwick upheld a bar to qualifying as a public school teacher for resident aliens who have not manifested an intention to apply for citizenship. The “governmental function” test took on added significance, the Court saying that the “distinction between citizens and aliens, though ordinarily irrelevant to private activity, is fundamental to the definition and government of a State.” Thus, “governmental entities, when exercising the functions of government, have wider latitude in limiting the participation of noncitizens.”


The Federal Government may not discriminate invidiously against aliens, Mathews v. Diaz, 426 U.S. 67, 77 (1976). However, because of the plenary power delegated by the Constitution to the national government to deal with aliens and naturalization, federal classifications are judged by less demanding standards than are those of the States, and many classifications which would fail if attempted by the States have been sustained because Congress has made them. [/quote]–“The New Equal Protection: Classifications Meriting Close Scrutiny” (citations omitted by me), Justia Web Site, at URL supreme.justia.com/constitution/ … ality.html

In other words, [color=#FF0000]US Citizens ONLY[/color]…[/quote] The Aviation Safety Inspector job is also an FAA job. Please see my quoted matter above.

[quote=“bismarck”]Senior Project Engineer / Manager

[quote]Requirements

* Must have a BS or MS in Mechanical Engineering.
* Should have at least 5 years of project management, and 5 years of design engineering experience.
* Must have proven leadership skills to manage project teams from beginning to end.
* Must possess very good communication skills (verbal, written, and presentation).
* Support purchasing, production, quality control, testing and sales, in meeting contracts and customer needs and expectations.
* Must possess strong project planning and cost management skills.
* Must be methodical and highly organized.
* Must have solid skills in 3D modeling and drafting.
* Knowledge of structural and thermal analysis is a plus.
* Proficiency in SolidWorks is required. Experience in  COSMOSWorks is a plus. 
* Must possess sound engineering judgment to mitigate program (cost, schedule, and technical) risks.
* Experience with military contracts and specifications. 
* Must be familiar with typical applicable codes/standards, such as ASME, ANSI, AWS, etc.
* [color=#FF0000]US citizenship is a strict requirement for the job. Non-US citizens will not qualify.[/color][/quote][/quote] The Senior Project Engineer / Manager job involves the  "design and manufacture of engineered electronic enclosures and consoles for the military," according to the Web page you linked to.  That's an understandable exception.

Again, I ain’t looking to write a 40-page brief on the subject, but I’d say I’ve gone at least a little ways toward showing that the situation is significantly different in the U.S. from the situation here.

I don’t know how familiar others here are with the ways of the U.S. Government, so maybe only a few people can relate to this, but to those who can: Just try to imagine what it’s like for a discriminating employer to receive a communication from the Justice Department concerning discrimination (not that that agency would be involved in every case of this kind). I think that would give me a “gotta-go-potty” feeling.

You’re all thinking about Taiwanese “discrimination” through Western eyes.

Think of it as a Taiwanese. “We want to hire a Taiwanese. Why do we need a Westerner for this job anyway? I can easily find a Taiwanese reporter who will a) completely and totally understand the story that he’s reporting on, unlike a Westerner who just won’t get it, no matter how good his Chinese is; b) not need a work permit and all that stuff; c) not leave after a year to get a better job somewhere else; d) put up with all the cr@p I’m going to dish out as his boss; e) have perfectly good (and perfect) written English anyway, because as we all know, we Taiwanese can learn English perfectly but foreigners cannot learn Chinese perfectly.”

Now imagine there is no public outcry, because the group of people you’re “discriminating” against (in your mind, “filtering out”) is so small and disenfranchised anyway, and because the public doesn’t rise up screaming when you do anything that disfavors that group, as is the case in other (Western) countries such as the US. Gosh, we could do that to “filter out” women, too…after all they don’t really need the money, they’re not the breadwinners for their families…

It’s perfectly logical if you think like a Taiwanese. It sounds wrong to a Westerner because of what we’re used to. If the Taiwanese didn’t want discrimination (“filtering”) of this sort, they would pass laws or put regulations in place to prevent it. God knows they have enough other laws and regulations regarding the employment of foreigners.

nb: at least one part of e) above is true…

IL -
Spot on as usual.

Funniest thing, I saw this advert last week and was thinking about posting about it on here. But I thought…Naaaw…it wouldn’t even raise a fluffle amongst the Forumosa crowd…:smiley:

They don’t really need a foreign reporter. A lot of their reporters are Taiwanese. The foreigners are the copy editors who have to fix the reporters’ English. In general, it is better there than at the China Post, where there are two foreigners to correct the abysmal English of the reporters (Taiwanese, but also some from the Philippines, because people from the Philippines have really good English, according to the boss), not twenty or whatever number they have at the TT.

I am quite sure (or at least I hope) that the feeling is mutual.

Four pages. There’s a phone number on the ad. Anyone think to call and ask, or would that spoil the circle-wank going on here? :unamused:

Wow!
Why such a Mr. Grumpy? You’ve made more than 25,000 posts on forumosa. Obviously these were all vital posts, quite unlike the superfluous ones in this thread.

Wow!
Why such a Mr. Grumpy? You’ve made more than 25,000 posts on forumosa. Obviously these were all vital posts, quite unlike the superfluous ones in this thread.[/quote]
You’re starting to get the picture. I DID call the number and I know exactly why the ad is worded like that – they wanted no Kiwis, but felt bad singling out a particular race. We ALL suffered because of YOUR unsavoury predilections, in other words.