[quote=“ac_dropout”]More like it diminishes the image of the ROC government because instead of dealing with real concrete issues, it panders to nonsense like this. Making a category of national languages that serve no purpose other than pandering to a voting base.
Only the aboriginal languages are going extinct and probably needs a lot of intervention to keep it alive on Taiwan.[/quote] Agree about the aboriginal language part. As for the notion that this is purely pandering to a voter base - that’s just your opinion. The voters will decide whether it’s a waste of their tax money in the next elections.
Agreed that Taiwanese is not the native language of the vast majority of children these days. I live in Tainan, the heart of deep Green country, and every single young person I’ve met speaks Mandarin as their native language. Their grandparents are probably the last generation of genuinely native Taiwanese speakers.
[quote=“Quentin”]Agreed that Taiwanese is not the native language of the vast majority of children these days. I live in Tainan, the heart of deep Green country, and every single young person I’ve met speaks Mandarin as their native language. Their grandparents are probably the last generation of genuinely native Taiwanese speakers.[/quote] I’m assuming you know why grandparents and grandchildren who were born in the same place have different mother languages. It’s not like in the US, for example, where kids born there speak English but have grandparents whose mother language is that of the ‘Old Country’.
[quote=“TaipeiDawg”][quote=“Quentin”]Agreed that Taiwanese is not the native language of the vast majority of children these days. I live in Tainan, the heart of deep Green country, and every single young person I’ve met speaks Mandarin as their native language. Their grandparents are probably the last generation of genuinely native Taiwanese speakers.[/quote] I’m assuming you know why grandparents and grandchildren who were born in the same place have different mother languages. It’s not like in the US, for example, where kids born there speak English but have grandparents whose mother language is that of the ‘Old Country’.[/quote]I think that Quentin’s just commenting on what he’s observed, which I guess is the same as what I saw in Taichung: most elementary-aged kids are not proficient in speaking Taiwanese, and usually speak Mandarin for most purposes. Why do you assume that Quentin knows why this should be? Is it necessary to know the reason for something before you make an observation about it?
I’d make a guess that the same kind of process is going on with Taiwanese as is happening with the Welsh language in Wales; that despite strong governmental support for the language (stronger and more comprehensive for Welsh there than for Taiwanese here), an increasing number of young people use another language for most daily communication.
Still, my experience differs from Quentin’s in that I know quite a few young adults who are comfortable with using Taiwanese and use it out by choice in certain situations. I don’t think that fluency in Taiwanese is limited to grandparents.
[quote=“joesax”]I think that Quentin’s just commenting on what he’s observed, which I guess is the same as what I saw in Taichung: most elementary-aged kids are not proficient in speaking Taiwanese, and usually speak Mandarin for most purposes. Why do you assume that Quentin knows why this should be? Is it necessary to know the reason for something before you make an observation about it?[/quote] In fact, I don’t assume that he knows why that is - I’m actually more curious than anything. You don’t have to understand the history behind it to make an observation. But there is a reason that Taiwanese, a (non-aboriginal) mother language of Taiwan for hundreds of years was banished, institutionally replaced, and then only 50+ years later recognized as a national language. That’s why this language thread was started in the politics forum and not in a culture forum.
What is a native speaker? I mean, if you’re going to be picky about it, most Taiwanese or mainland Chinese kids are not native speakers of Guoyu/Putonghua. Most kids now can perform more functions using Guoyu than they can with whatever dialect their families traditionally have spoken, but for many of them, a dialect is still their first or native language. It’s not too uncommon in the world for someone to be “weaker” in their 1st or native language than they are in another language that came to dominate their lives.
It seems to me that a lot of discussions on this topic are colored by the assumption that it must be either language A or language B, but not both. Chinese people often come at the issue with the assumption that the national language is the language of all good things such as high culture, education, modernization and commercial success, and because of this many have the attitude that there is nothing wrong with their kids losing their first language or dialect. Of course attitudes vary depending on the dialect in question. Many foreigners, especially those of us from English speaking countries, come at this issue with backgrounds in societies where bilingualism is less common than in non-native English speaking countries.
Coming from the US and not having learned a second language until I was in my twenties, I long thought that it was natural for a person to be able to use his or her native language in every domain in life. That is how most native English speakers in the US or other English speaking countries live. However, that is not how most other people in the world live. In many societies, China included, it is a fact of life that people use one language in some domains and then another language in other domains.
Some dialect speakers in China don’t give a toss whether their kids lose the home dialect; some certainly encourage it. These people are usually speakers of weak dialects, i.e. Hunanhua or increasingly, Hakka. These groups of people don’t seem to have the critical mass, group identity or economic clout to make their dialects survive in the long term. Canto speakers, and to a lesser but still strong degree, Southern Min speakers, do seem to have what it takes as a group to keep their dialects kicking. However, this does not mean that these dialects will ever develop into languages that will serve in all domains of language use.
It seems to me that the most liberal but still mainstream idea one can hear about dialects in Chinese society is that they have their place in certain parts of life and that they should be respected, but that they will never be able to compete with PTH or Guoyu within certain domains. I think it’s perfectly fine for Taiwanese kids to use dialect at school and for them to be told that there is nothing wrong with using it anywhere they think it might be natural or useful. They’ll get a feel as they grow up for when it is socially acceptable to use dialect and when it’s not, and by letting them figure it out more by themselves rather than constantly telling them that it is wrong to use dialect, they will likely have little or no chips on their shoulders. However, to me, saying that it is great for kids to be educated in their first language shows ignorance of reality. I do believe that theoretically, any language or dialect can evolve so that it is useful in a wide range of domains, but that takes a damn long time. Standard Modern Chinese and Guoyu, even after gestating for centuries, are still lagging in some domains relative to other languages. A dialect like Southern Min is way far behind the national language. I think it should have its place, but IMO, any suggestion that Guoyu or Standard Modern Chinese should be replaced by dialect systems in early education is idealistic and a bit-damn, here it comes, I’m going to sound like a brainwashed member of the CCP or KMT- wreckless.
[quote=“Jive Turkey”]A dialect like Southern Min is way far behind the national language. I think it should have its place, but IMO, any suggestion that Guoyu or Standard Modern Chinese should be replaced by dialect systems in early education is idealistic and a bit-damn, here it comes, I’m going to sound like a brainwashed member of the CCP or KMT- wreckless.[/quote] I think you’re missing the point - nobody is trying to replace Mandarin with a dialect. The KMT did their best to exterminate Taiwanese language (and Taiwanese intellectuals as well…) in order to maintain political control of the island. But obviously it remains widely spoken in various degrees in various places. The point is that it is now formally recognized as a national language - and as such I assume it will be entitled to finanicial aid or what not from the government or be formally added to the educational system. For example, when I was in elementary school in the US I took classes in Spanish and French. And in high school studied German. They were never meant to replace Englsih.
Or think of it this way, since you are a foreigner living here you must have a bunch of books on Mandarin that you can buy anywhere and probably have taken classes. However, if you want to learn Taiwanese how do you do it other than verbally with your friends or coworkers? What books are available to learn from? And what schools offer classes in it?
[quote=“Jive Turkey”]What is a native speaker? I mean, if you’re going to be picky about it, most Taiwanese or mainland Chinese kids are not native speakers of Guoyu/Putonghua. Most kids now can perform more functions using Guoyu than they can with whatever dialect their families traditionally have spoken, but for many of them, a dialect is still their first or native language. It’s not too uncommon in the world for someone to be “weaker” in their 1st or native language than they are in another language that came to dominate their lives.
It seems to me that a lot of discussions on this topic are colored by the assumption that it must be either language A or language B, but not both. Chinese people often come at the issue with the assumption that the national language is the language of all good things such as high culture, education, modernization and commercial success, and because of this many have the attitude that there is nothing wrong with their kids losing their first language or dialect. Of course attitudes vary depending on the dialect in question. Many foreigners, especially those of us from English speaking countries, come at this issue with backgrounds in societies where bilingualism is less common than in non-native English speaking countries.
Coming from the US and not having learned a second language until I was in my twenties, I long thought that it was natural for a person to be able to use his or her native language in every domain in life. That is how most native English speakers in the US or other English speaking countries live. However, that is not how most other people in the world live. In many societies, China included, it is a fact of life that people use one language in some domains and then another language in other domains.[/quote]Great post, Jive Turkey. You put into words something I was trying to say before – that while Taiwanese might in some sense be a mother language to many kids, it’s not their strongest language. I think it goes further than you implied, though. I understand about using different languages in different domains. Many young adults I know use Taiwanese in some situations and Mandarin in others (though of course the two languages are often used together in the same conversation and even in the same sentence – codeswitching). However, it’s my impression that many children are not able to do much at all with Taiwanese in a productive sense, though they probably understand a fair bit of what they hear. The same goes for Hakka.
[quote]…It seems to me that the most liberal but still mainstream idea one can hear about dialects in Chinese society is that they have their place in certain parts of life and that they should be respected, but that they will never be able to compete with PTH or Guoyu within certain domains. I think it’s perfectly fine for Taiwanese kids to use dialect at school and for them to be told that there is nothing wrong with using it anywhere they think it might be natural or useful. They’ll get a feel as they grow up for when it is socially acceptable to use dialect and when it’s not, and by letting them figure it out more by themselves rather than constantly telling them that it is wrong to use dialect, they will likely have little or no chips on their shoulders. However, to me, saying that it is great for kids to be educated in their first language shows ignorance of reality. I do believe that theoretically, any language or dialect can evolve so that it is useful in a wide range of domains, but that takes a damn long time. Standard Modern Chinese and Guoyu, even after gestating for centuries, are still lagging in some domains relative to other languages. A dialect like Southern Min is way far behind the national language. I think it should have its place, but IMO, any suggestion that Guoyu or Standard Modern Chinese should be replaced by dialect systems in early education is idealistic and a bit-damn, here it comes, I’m going to sound like a brainwashed member of the CCP or KMT- wreckless.[/quote]In fact there is a good case for starting off subject teaching in kids’ strongest language, whether or not that is also the “mother language”. Happily, in Taiwan, most kids’ strongest language is Mandarin, which as you say is the most useful for subject learning.
think we all are missing the point here… clearly, this government is trying to get almonds with a very short stick… so they can only the ones on the bottom, that don’t change almost anything. For the ones in the top, they need the LY stick, but that is in the hands of the other brother who only cares about not letting this guy get the almonds…
[quote=“mr_boogie”]think we all are missing the point here… clearly, this government is trying to get almonds with a very short stick… so they can only the ones on the bottom, that don’t change almost anything. For the ones in the top, they need the LY stick, but that is in the hands of the other brother who only cares about not letting this guy get the almonds…[/quote]Don’t know about the main point, but you had me missing your point until I found this info:[quote=“http://campingcar-rando.net/voyages/voyages.php?page=port_02”]24 de Setembro
Colheita das amêndoas com vara. Um autocarro transporta-nos ao miradouro de S. Martinho, com uma vista excepcional de 360 graus, em particular sobre o Douro, e a satisfação de um aperitivo com bolos variados e cheio de coisas agradáveis de comer. Almoço no centro de juventude. Visita em autocarro ao castelo de Marialva, a não esquecer, seguidamente Trancoso. Magnífico. Compra de amêndoas descascadas, a 8 € o Kg.[/quote]
So what exactly do you think the “good almonds” consist of in this situation? Would you like to see similar efforts made for Taiwanese here as have been made for Welsh in Wales? What about Hakka and the aboriginal languages? Do you think that a massive increase in support for teaching of all these languages would really accomplish much in the long term? It’s very hard for top-down governmental policies to affect the real, everyday use of one language, let alone multiple languages.
I think mr_boogie is saying that without LY majority and the opposition blocking everything, such as a new constitution, arms packages “good almonds” all they have left to do is the pulling down of statues, renaming airports and playing around with the definition of the national language.
Basically I think he is saying, no need to criticize the current moves. The reason we are not seeing spectacular things is because of the KMT majority in the LY and they block everything. However, it might be worth reflecting on why the DPP do not have a majority. Which in my opinion is because they have not earned the trust of the people. In short, no one to blame but themselves.
[quote=“joesax”]
Still, my experience differs from Quentin’s in that I know quite a few young adults who are comfortable with using Taiwanese and use it out by choice in certain situations. I don’t think that fluency in Taiwanese is limited to grandparents.[/quote]
Oh, I didn’t mean that, because there are plenty of people under 40 in southern Taiwan that regularly use Taiwanese in conversations. But they are also fluent in Mandarin, as well. They are a sort of bridge generation, in that the parents can speak both Taiwanese and Mandarin with ease, while the grandparents can’t speak Mandarin, and the children have lost a lot of interest in learning Taiwanese. I don’t know how many years exactly - possibly around 20 or so, for one generation - Mandarin has been the “native” language of most Taiwanese children, and Taiwanese is a second language kept to preserve culture. Within a couple of generations I doubt that there will be any truly native Taiwanese speakers left, though it will certainly survive as many people’s second language. Similar to the situation in Wales with English/Welsh and Ireland with English/Gaelic, as someone brought up above.
The United Nations is in favor of allowing children the right to be educated bilingually when the language they speak at home is not the language of the state. They base this position on scientific reasons. I feel that we should listen to the experts, the scientists who have done research in education and languages.
Certainly, some people in Taiwan speak Mandarin at home. There’s no drive to force such children to study in Taiwanese or some other language. But there are some who do not speak Mandarin at home, yet they may be forced to study in Mandarin. Studying in a language that is not spoken at home means that the first years of study are focused on learning a new language.
Additionally, brain research has shown that someone who studies in Mandarin but learned something else as their first language processes each differently. Those children who grew up speaking something else are important, too, and we can offer them education that allows them to fully use their brain (Broca’s area). It may or may not require a bit more money, but there are advantages: children in minority groups get teachers who speak the same language as their parents, who respect their first language, and as a result children can learn more and become more productive in their lives.
Scientists have determined that there is a neurological difference between native and second languages:
[quote=“UN Publication: Language in education: a factor in poverty among indigenous peoples”]Educating minority, indigenous or tribal children exclusively
in the language of the dominant culture rather than
in their mother tongue actually perpetuates poverty.[/quote]
I feel that this is a political issue because some people would rather listen to their gut feelings than to the scientists. The media in Taiwan is split between Taiwanese and Mandarin: preferring to watch Taiwanese programs demonstrates that many in Taiwan use Taiwanese as their native language. It’s not the same neurologically to study in your first language or in another language. Let’s give everyone the chance to study in their first language.
First, I don’t know how much of the English was imposed to people from Wales and Ireland, but if you see what is happening in Catalonia, Basque Country and Corse, where different languages where imposed, you’ll see different reactions.
[quote=“twocs”]The United Nations is in favor of allowing children the right to be educated bilingually when the language they speak at home is not the language of the state. They base this position on scientific reasons. I feel that we should listen to the experts, the scientists who have done research in education and languages.[/quote]Is this addressed to me? If so, why? I don’t disagree with any of it, and indeed I mentioned the writings of Stephen Krashen who also supports this viewpoint.
[quote=“twocs”]Certainly, some people in Taiwan speak Mandarin at home. There’s no drive to force such children to study in Taiwanese or some other language. But there are some who do not speak Mandarin at home, yet they may be forced to study in Mandarin. Studying in a language that is not spoken at home means that the first years of study are focused on learning a new language.[/quote]Well you see here’s where we need some decent statistics. My personal experience is that even in the first grade, most kids are far more proficient in Mandarin than they are in Taiwanese. If you have evidence that refutes that, let’s see it.
The impression I have is that most kids are exposed to Mandarin and some Taiwanese from a very early age. Obviously this a completely different situation from having to learn a new language at the time of starting school. The thing that puzzles me a little is why many kids I’ve met seem not very good at speaking Taiwanese, and that some of the Taiwanese they can speak is actually what they’ve learned at school! As I said earlier, most kids seem to understand it OK, but many can’t speak much, or at least are reluctant to speak it and seem to have to search for words when they do. Quite the opposite of what you’d expect if Taiwanese were the “mother tongue” in any meaningful sense.
[quote=“twocs”]I feel that this is a political issue because some people would rather listen to their gut feelings than to the scientists. The media in Taiwan is split between Taiwanese and Mandarin: preferring to watch Taiwanese programs demonstrates that many in Taiwan use Taiwanese as their native language. It’s not the same neurologically to study in your first language or in another language. Let’s give everyone the chance to study in their first language.[/quote]Who prefers to watch programs in Taiwanese? Older people or kids? I agree that many adults are native speakers of Taiwanese, and indeed many people are fully bilingual in Mandarin and Taiwanese. But I was talking about kids, and I guess you were, too. Do kids prefer to watch programs in Taiwanese? I don’t get that impression. But I agree that gut feelings can be unreliable. So, again, let’s see some evidence for what you’re saying. I’m certainly willing to adjust my viewpoint based on good evidence, and I for one have no political axe to grind.
And any other group that challenged them, the Japanese, the Hakka, the aboriginal, the WSR. So to interprete it as trying to wipe out Hoklo and Minnan language is somewhat skewd.
This issue is with a majority of Chinese dialects, there is no written standard for them. This is not the fault of the KMT, but just the nature of how Chinese written language developed.
What’s next replacing all the Chinese street signs in Taiwan with Taiwanese one?
[quote=“mr_boogie”]First, I don’t know how much of the English was imposed to people from Wales and Ireland, but if you see what is happening in Catalonia, Basque Country and Corse, where different languages where imposed, you’ll see different reactions.[/quote]I don’t understand. Why do you think there are “different reactions” when you don’t know anything about what happened in Wales? In any case, I’d say that the Welsh experience is very apposite to the language situation here.
But Wales is part of the UK and doesn’t court war with the UK by suggesting the USA save them from whatever political fall out may occur.
[quote=“Mick”]The reason we are not seeing spectacular things is because of the KMT majority in the LY and they block everything. However, it might be worth reflecting on why the DPP do not have a majority. Which in my opinion is because they have not earned the trust of the people. In short, no one to blame but themselves.[/quote] Well, with LY elections on the horizon feel free to enlighten us as to what the KMT has done to earn the trust of the people and why they should be re-elected. With a legislative majority for such a long time they should have been able to accomplish some noteworthy things. I would conceivably vote KMT if they had a good track record and fielded a good candidate.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]And any other group that challenged them, the Japanese, the Hakka, the aboriginal, the WSR. So to interprete it as trying to wipe out Hoklo and Minnan language is somewhat skewd.[/quote] Yes, the KMT has a history of authoritarianism and brutality. They’ve targeted people much more so than languages. No arguments here.
[quote=“ac_dropout”]This issue is with a majority of Chinese dialects, there is no written standard for them. This is not the fault of the KMT, but just the nature of how Chinese written language developed. What’s next replacing all the Chinese street signs in Taiwan with Taiwanese one?[/quote] Historically there is no written standard. That doesn’t mean that there can’t be. The written language that goes along with Mandarin is not the most accessible in the world, as we all know. Had Taiwanese not been stifled by the KMT for so long there’s no reason to think a writing system couldn’t have developed - actually they do exist but I don’t know for how long. Maybe with some government funding they will finally standardize one.
As for the street signs, I don’t think they’ll be in Taiwanese any time soon. The KMT had decades to get the romanized Mandarin right and they’re still all screwed up.