Wasn’t quite sure where to put this one… Arts & Entertainment? Dating and Relationships? Business & Money? Sports? Living in Taiwan? Health & Fitness? Legal? Where Can I Find…? Anyway I did a search and, well maybe I wasn’t the only one who didn’t notice these recent changes here. I think it kicks in 6 months from now.
“The government has decided to decriminalize prostitution but will leave the decision to set up red light districts to local governments, an official said yesterday.” taipeitimes.com/News/front/a … 2003447087
“The government has proposed red-light districts but critics say it should offer more job opportunities so women can avoid the sex trade” taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003448261
It seems like a complex issue, but in my view its a progressive move to bring this out from the shadows so it can be safer for all concerned. I mean, Taiwan is joining most of the civilized world on this one.
I’m not really up on the state of the art in this debate, which has surely been staked out clearly in Europe for decades. Maybe its not a perfect solution but when I read this article about mainland China I have to feel its the lesser of two evils. shanghaiist.com/2009/03/05/the_p … aojies.php
Assuming both the new prostitution law and the Neihu MRT line actually work, both should improve attendance at next Computex. Which is #30 and is June 1-5, 2010. Jeez, maybe this thread goes in the Technology forum…
Actually though I read this change as another sign that the KMT doesn’t care about US approval (and kowtowing to US morality and cultural hegemony). The KMT only cares about what PRC thinks.
Chinese Beijing has a lot they could learn from Chinese Taipei, if only they would pay attention. But then, the USA has a lot they could learn from Europe, and rarely looks outside its borders.
The book Generalissimo says Sun Yat Sen was quite the whoremonger. Maybe they set up the red light district on the grounds of SYS Memorial Hall?
When Western observers look at the Taiwan situation and discuss the decriminalization of prostitution, they have some sort of European analogy in mind. You know…the kind that takes place in liberal societies with very strong central government. But surprise, surprise…the situation in Taiwan is more complex.
The regulation of prostitution has gone through various phases in Taiwan. At times when it was licensed, the government demonstrated a distinct inability to properly regulate it. For example, in the 1980’s, underage aboriginal girls were trafficked illegally through Snake Alley (華西街). When they got old enough, the legal brothel owners would apply for a license and sell them legally.
The complete lack of ability to control prostitution is the reason why women’s right groups in Taiwan unanimously oppose its decriminalization.
I don’t suppose our libertarian friends here advocate Somalian style government. So what’s the libertarian stance on a policy that can not possibly be enforced properly?
Scott, you raise a good point. Prostitution here is not currently as dire a situation as in PRC… nor will it be as regulated as Europe.
I think you are stretching things to say that regulated prostitution “cannot possibly be enforced properly” here. Taiwan administrates many laws effectively and efficiently.
Still, if you say “probably won’t be enforced properly” I think that is the reality.
I think though that on an issue like this some groups are talking through their turban, they have hidden motives. And actually there is one women’s group that isn’t part of the “unanamous opposition” you claim: the prostitutes rights group mentioned in the article. I’m going to throw down with them: my take is its worth trying the experiment. Its not going to be like the 60’s in Taiwan and Taipei isn’t going to turn into Pattaya.
I checked with a Libertarian. First of all, a lot of porno is still illegal here, so decriminalizing prostitution kind of puts the cart before the horse. Also, adultery is still illegal, so are they saying that whoring is only for single men? And lastly, don’t women or homosexuals seeking services remain disenfranchised?
There are groups that have women members that have spoken in support of regulated prostitution in Taiwan. These groups have even claimed they were motivated by the welfare and sex rights of prostitutes. If you look at other political activities of the membership, what you find is that it fits well into the traditional Green/Blue split. Groups that were founded to address women’s rights issues and whose members have been consistently politically active addressing these issues do not support decriminalized and regulated prostitution.
You may have found an exception to this. I would need to know more detailed information about the membership of the group you refer to.
Prostitution if applied by libertarian standards would look something similiar to the situation in New Zealand. Prostitutes are free to work where and how they want according to local laws. Most prefer to have a manager(pimp) to handle their clientele and screen them. The prostitute is in charge of their life and business. The govt has little or no control which leads to a variety of services and choices priced and operated according to their niche market.
Hence why the complete and utter failure of the Taiwanese past laws. With licenses and high barriers to entry, pimps are better able to exploit the woman who choose or are driven to this line of work. If the prostitute was able to decide how and when to work according to her whims, the management becomes little more than a service to use and not a gate you have to pay to pass through. They could also form trade associations to better protect themselves through pressure applied to those not cracking down on underage and illegal immigrant prostitution, something Europe could learn a lot about.
Anyone who thinks that prostitution doesn’t already happen according to libertariam norms is sorely misinformed.
In fact, many prostitutes in Taiwan have and do own their own licenses and only work for themselves. This was the issue when Chen Sui-bian as mayor of Taipei tried to take these licenses away. The current situation in Taiwan is that although prostitution is banned nationally, the national government does allow local government to regulate it as they choose. Hence, CSB choose to revoke licenses issued through Taipei City. There is no “past Taiwanese laws” in the sense that you seem to be writing.
You make it sound as though NZ prostitution is the Somalia of vice. These licenses are valid forever? And can never be taken away even if the license holder has an identified STD? The state makes no inspection of this or requires nothing in return - other than taxes? Are you sure about this? As much as this is true, it would work in NZ because inspection works.
You make it sound like the only difference between vice in Taiwan and Europe is the form of regulation, and that historical/cultural aspects of prostitution and morality are irrelevant. This is a strong argument and maybe beyond what we can handle on forumosa.
Not to screw up the discussion with a naive question, but what is a “slapper”?[/quote]
This is a really good point. I hadn’t noticed the details of the remark. I also don’t understand the usage. Google refers me to several definitions of the term, most of which are related to prostitution or loose morals. One source tells me, answers.yahoo.com/question/index … 952AAVk9uR
[quote]
Floozy not flousy. It means a dumb, ditzy girl, kind of like the blonde stereotype. A slapper can be a girl or a guy, and basically they’re just an idiot, really annoying, kind of slutty if it’s a girl, or coming onto a girl when she doesn’t want him to of it’s a guy. It’s kinda hard to explain. This is what these words mean in Australia, don’t know where you’re from, but they’re just slang words that can have multiple meanings.[/quote]
Prostitution has been in Taiwan for a long long time and has been pretty well organized. Though it may not have laws, there are generally “rules” that are followed. Daya used to have the streets lined with brothels for the American military and there is “The Zone” up in Taipei. I would like to see some info on it during the Japanese colonial period, but have never looked or came across anything by accident.
I didn’t know the laws about prostitution, but considering the level of enforcement against it. I’d have to assume no one really cares. When you can call the number in the back of the English magazines or newspapers and have someone give you an open and thorough run down on prices by prostitute age and services rendered in very good English, you can only assume that the market is deep and mature.
[quote]You make it sound as though NZ prostitution is the Somalia of vice.[/quote]I found this funny as Somalia is suppose to have some of the best cellphone service in Africa according to an The Economist article I read in the past. The best part of it in NZ is that they make it normal and empower the women in it. An example, a NZ prostitute can say no to going bareback and only lose some business, a Moldavian prostitute has none of those safeguards in Germany or anywhere else in Europe. The clientele can also ask for health certification to know that their prostitute is clean in NZ. A libertarian system goes both ways and both sellers and buyers are empowered because they can refuse a sale or take their business elsewhere, versus a closed monopoly system which while working in the short term tend to fail eventually due to excess cost and regulation.
Now the important part in the Europe versus NZ debate is the reliance of European prostitution on poor E. European women who have few language skills nor command of basic legal requirements and rights. A sexually abused underclass is something that I think all reasonable people can agree is something that needs to be stomped out.
NZ prostitution is generally held up as a model form for all involved parties. It’s not perfect, but it seems pretty damn good. BBC did a few articles on it. I’m actually against prostitution and don’t condone it. I do know that thinking you will stop it is sheer idiocy, victimless crimes are just that way.
[quote]You make it sound like the only difference between vice in Taiwan and Europe is the form of regulation, and that historical/cultural aspects of prostitution and morality are irrelevant.[/quote]Men are men, the world over. If you argued that they were different, I’d turn your argument on it’s head by saying that there are more differences within them than between them. I’d also consider such an argument racialist.
[quote=“ScottSommers”]There are groups that have women members that have spoken in support of regulated prostitution in Taiwan. These groups have even claimed they were motivated by the welfare and sex rights of prostitutes. If you look at other political activities of the membership, what you find is that it fits well into the traditional Green/Blue split. Groups that were founded to address women’s rights issues and whose members have been consistently politically active addressing these issues do not support decriminalized and regulated prostitution.
You may have found an exception to this. I would need to know more detailed information about the membership of the group you refer to.[/quote]The article in the OP says "'The government should protect sex workers’ human rights and stop treating them like criminals,” COSWAS chief Chung Chun-chu (鍾君竺) said. “It should allow a blanket decriminalization to regulate the sex trade.”
Is it accurate to summarize that you are opposed to the change, and argue that Taiwan cannot be compared to any other countries, and thus isolated, all local women’s groups are opposed, and any group in favor either lacks women or has a partisan agenda. I am not sure you read the articles in my original post, which mention that many prostitutes, individually and collectively, want the change. And also that the government relied on studies from academia.
If anyone is interested in the perspective of the (foreign) male, I refer you to internationalsexguide.info where the feeling seems to be, there are 35 year olds at Caesar’s, there are ugly girls in the shacks in Sanchong, Taiwan in general and Taipei in specific have the worst whoring in Asia, and you’re better off just flying to ANY other place in Asia, though the locals do OK here if you are well connected.
My wife told me that a friend at her old company was so impressed with the girls of one particular KTV in Taiwan that he couldn’t babble about it for weeks.
As I only been to PartyWorld and the girls in my room are normally extremelly cute (in case my wife reads this), I would say it is possible.
Now the KTV’s in HKG and China that I was forced into, now those have completely and utterly low class girls who sing awfully, just make you drink and are very bad company (and don’t speak English, so I’m lost there… can only say the number when playing the dice game). Worst part, they force themselves into you, their mamas are really abusing your patiente and tell you they have big boobs when 80% of it is bra, and even like that they look like a 12 yo girl from where I come from… And then the laobans get amazed when I tell them that I don’t take girls into the room. Common… pay for sex?
Worst part is when you are in a massage center (good to spend a few hours when you have an early flight out of HKG and don’t want to pay hotel) and then the girl asks you where you are going, if you are married, where we are staying… common, I’m there to enjoy massage, not sweet talk…
The best part of the PRC is that pornography is banned, but then you have saunas and KTV in the hotels you are staying, with hundreds of girls prostituting themselves… maybe they don’t want this biz to go down by allowing men to surpress their necessities by themselves…
