Haha, you have a point. I come from a tiny town in Maine. Still, I have traveled extensively in the US and lived for a time in Portland, Oregon. I also lived in Bangkok for more than three years, a city of more than 9 million people. No where have I seen people as completely self-occupied as here in Taiwan.
Yet you certainly have a point about the overcrowding. In most other places I’ve been, people at least had the option of escape. Within a half day’s drive of Bangkok were beautiful beaches and mountains; a relatively large open country with lots of empty spaces. But in Taiwan there simply are no empty, open spaces. Even the mountains get incredibly packed on nice days.
I will also concede that the only “locals” I know are those I work with, and my previously mentioned asshole neighbors. Most of the people I work with are nice, polite and outgoing; but as I also mentioned, some of them are genuinely evil people – ie, my supervisor.
Regardless, it’s not as if I haven’t lived or seen other places. I’m not claiming that I’ve been everywhere or have seen everything; but I’ve seen enough to know that Taiwanese people are at least exceptionally rude.
I’m certainly not saying that it’s all a bed of roses. there is a lot of obvious selfishness here: driving, buslines, train stations, walking along the sidewalk at a snail’s pace, the majority of people seem to be oblivious of others, or of the effects of their actions on people and space around them. but that’s the public face. the personal face of the taiwanese people is very different: good friends, great family, etc.
amazingly, they can put up with all the public space shit and still smile. and then of course, you do get your genuine arseholes: many of them. but i have seen arseholes, selfish people, and genuine turds on a stick, socially as well as morally, in lots of places, especially including large cities like London and Sydney.
hmm… I can actually understand barfomcgee and homey’s points of view. Each point mentioned by them matches with my own experiences having lived in Taiwan for almost five years. Mind you I’m not from a “small country town” where “everyone knows each other”.
I guess people where we come from are a lot more socially advanced and socially intelligent, even in crowds we look out for others. We don’t push or cut off, we look behind to hold a door open for the person behind us, and let others go first.
I’ve had mixed experiences in Taiwan. There are some really great, kind, helpful people. Then there are some absolute tools (or those who go through the motions of civilities for no other reason than they feel they have to), and I often run into both in a five minute span. Most people are just fairly oblivious to my presence, and rightly so as I largely exist outside their society. In the main, I just generally go about my business, and I would say it’s far easier to cope here than in the U.K. or Russia, where I really did find people to be generally despicable. Here, most are just fairly clueless. Of course, few (if any) Taiwanese people should ever be put behind the wheel of a car, but we all know that already.
Extroverted People:
Exhibit 1: Stranger at Sushi Express trying to talk to me about his favorite sushi dishes passing by on the conveyer belt, then offering cigarette, then pointing at 7/11 for cheaper beer.
Introverted Society:
Exhibit 1: Not one damn news channel commited to news beyond the daily videos of Taiwan noodle slurping. Not even an agreement with one international news chain to use their news clips legally…
so that’s a pass on exhibit 1, and a fail on exhibit 2 then, is it?
you’d be surprised how many of the 6 24-hr news TV stations DO have agreements with CNN, BBC, even Al Jazeera, to use their clips legally, and the money they pay for such. the failure is in their general lack of bravery to do so. usually this is due to the edicts from the director of news, or his or her boss, to maintain ratings at all costs. noodles rate better than politics, wars and disasters overseas. but some clips do get shown, despite all the ravishing stories about poisoned pigs, lost dogs, and of course, noodle stands.
Introverted Exhibit 2: Noodles rate better than politics, news and disasters overseas… etc.
Off point, in 3 years, I have yet to see one approved clip from CNN, or BBC, or… The ones shown are fuzzy images in the background which appears to be an attempt to either use it illegally, or not pay the fees.
Bastards. Dirty stinking bastards every last one of them. Except for my friends, who are all super-cool and hip. Same with Americans, Australians, hell even English people can be marginally OK, as long as I’ve known them personally for at least three years.
Really? They often use clips from overseas news networks. Just today I was watching pictures of a stampede in Indonesia.
I don’t imagine they would get away with not paying fees for these clips.
being “oblivious to others,” ignoring strangers, acting selfishly in public may have something to do with confucian concepts (which im sure have been discussed before). that’s not to say the average person goes around thinking “what would confucius do” but it’s an ingrained part of the culture. much the same as in HK, korea, china (people in all those places, where ive lived and worked, are MUCH ruder). just look at confucianism and relationships, etc. such as “filial piety”
These are the relationships conceived in the confucian philosophy (from wikipedia)
Sovereign to subject
Parent to child
Husband to wife
Elder to younger sibling
Friend to friend (The members of this relationship are equal to one another)
as you can see, there’s nothing in the system to sort out a Tw person’s connection to a stranger or even your average foreigner…not to excuse a whole nation living in the stone age, however
Probably a lot to do with living in a crowed urban environment, and little to do with Confucianism. People don’t have much the time to stop and give a friendly smile to the passing foreigner. I am quite glad of that.
Very similar to any other big city in that respect. Where are you from?
That is not true. The major news channels all subscribe to major news services such as CNN and AP for news clips. The clips are used legally. It’s just that they are used rarely because there is no market for them.
I’m pretty sure that fact alone doesn’t prove any kind of point, other than which country is more well-known.
Ignorance/lack of education/whatever you want to call it. There’s more of it here than in the U.S., despite the high rate of occurrence there.
Annoying as it is at times, I think a good deal of it can be chalked up to the stage of development this country is in. It’s to be expected, really. Isolation and democratic infancy are big factors. I’m sure you could make the argument that considering it’s development stage vs. the U.S., Taiwan is ahead of the curve.
My experiences in the public education system have shown me that the vast majority of kids in this country have absolutely no idea about geography, other cultures, world affairs, etc. This is far, far worse than the two other education systems in which I have taught (Australian and British). I think a large part of it is due to the fact that those subjects are probably not valued at all in the education system here. Who needs social studies (or social skills!) to be an engineer or doctor, right? Likewise, as discussed in another thread, the idea that Japan actually isn’t even in Europe, let alone the EU, doesn’t stop anyone from putting a J EU number plate on their car if it’s “cool”. That seems to be the mindset.
Besides the newness of “democracy”, I think you always have to factor in the isolation and limited access to information in the past. Even now media is controlled and skewed (which is not to say that it is not in the U.S.) This is a country in transition and sometimes trying to keep up with itself.
My wife has told me that 20 years ago when she went to the United States she did not even realize that people could vote for a candidate. People here are still afraid of their or their childrens’ opportunities being restricted if they are too outspoken.
I’m from Chicago. You could disagree with the political system there, but you would be making life hard for yourself and your family.
That said, my in-laws are healthy extroverted people who joke and talk to complete strangers - though the strangers are local and not foreigners.
This is my feeling too. People are taught certain values and social skills are underdeveloped here. Most (not all) people seem to value money, status and anything of prestige. The ones that don’t and have a real life are a breath of fresh air. Many of my students have told me that they think their own society is selfish. Professionals that do business over seas with locals have told me Taiwanese are nice, friendly and kind, but somewhat dull and have a limited amount to talk about or any real interests. Shame.
