Taiwan hurts my eyes, my nose, my throat. I vividly remember my first day off the plane in Kaohsiung, going to the waterfront park near the 85 building and having to beat a retreat back to the hotel after being exposed to the air.
I think it sums it up nicely: chabuduoism
Or: Why keep things in order and clean when you have to spend money on it without that it brings any benefit, aside from aesthetics? It’s not that people often look at their house from the outside …
sfer
[quote]Shiner wrote:
It might be just the broader roads with pavements, no scooters, less trash, less concrete, rosty sheet metal, but yes, I do think China’s cities are less ugly then Taiwan cities - with or without drugs.[/quote]
Clearly you must of missed beautiful Guang Zhou, Shen Zhen, (the 'Newark, NJ’of China), Sou Chou, Hang Chou, Harbin, Cheng Du or any other industrialized part of China. Been to a tier 3 city? Yeah sure, if you leave the cities for the real backwoods it’s quite pretty. But that’s the equivalent of heading off to Ali Shan or Pingtung in Taiwan - quite pretty as well. Have you ever left Taipei?
I don’t get the less trash bit. When ever I’ve been anywhere in China there’s been lots of trash. The countryside got even more trash, though it may be more ‘organic’ ie dung. Plus you get that ‘halitosis air’ fug you get in a lot of places.
Shanghai is OK. Gotta love the Ming the Merciless architecture though.
As for HKG - you haven’t seen a concrete fetish until you’ve lived in HKG.
Ha, a good one … and you can see it even in the fashion/clothes they wear 
I am sure there are very good reasons, as guangtou and others have pointed out, for Taiwan looking the way it does, but that doesn’t change anything. The fact remains that it is a filthy dirty place. Anyone who suggests otherwise is probably from a place that is even worse, like Manila or Chongching perhaps.
It baffles me how people lucky enough to have grown up in cleaner parts of the world can be so unfazed by the living conditions in Taiwan. I used to know a New Zealander from Christchurch living in an absolute hovel in a crusty industrial town in Taichung county who insisted he found the place quite decent on the whole… How for the love of Christ can he reconcile those two places in his mind? Is he insane?
I can only conclude that to survive in Taiwan happily you need to have some kind of mantra like JOHN MOSS about your cup actually being half full and whatnot to convince yourself that Taiwan is ‘beautiful’ or that it is ‘beautiful in a special way’ or that ‘beauty’ doesn’t really matter.
Living in Taiwan is like kissing your lovely, sweet girlfriend who happens to have black rotten teeth and a terrible case of halitosis. I cannot do it - and the people who can disgust me. So despite everything that I like about Taiwan (and there is a lot to like) I have to leave. The squalor is simply too much for me.
Well,some Taiwanese still very poor(compared to the average),many people dont have the sense of beauty and the policitcans only care about their benefits not the public’s.I think they disgut me much more than the real disguting people on the street. But I still believe that Taiwan’s enviroment will become better day by day…year by year.As an native Taiwanese,what I have to do is wait patiently.
[quote=“Sirakwai”]I am sure there are very good reasons, as guangtou and others have pointed out, for Taiwan looking the way it does, but that doesn’t change anything. The fact remains that it is a filthy dirty place. Anyone who suggests otherwise is probably from a place that is even worse, like Manila or Chongching perhaps.
It baffles me how people lucky enough to have grown up in cleaner parts of the world can be so unfazed by the living conditions in Taiwan. I used to know a New Zealander from Christchurch living in an absolute hovel in a crusty industrial town in Taichung county who insisted he found the place quite decent on the whole… How for the love of Christ can he reconcile those two places in his mind? Is he insane?
I can only conclude that to survive in Taiwan happily you need to have some kind of mantra like JOHN MOSS about your cup actually being half full and whatnot to convince yourself that Taiwan is ‘beautiful’ or that it is ‘beautiful in a special way’ or that ‘beauty’ doesn’t really matter.
Living in Taiwan is like kissing your lovely, sweet girlfriend who happens to have black rotten teeth and a terrible case of halitosis. I cannot do it - and the people who can disgust me. So despite everything that I like about Taiwan (and there is a lot to like) I have to leave. The squalor is simply too much for me.[/quote]
So, where do you live?
There you go. Problem solved. 
I find it funny, though, about your choice of what constitutes “nice” – the concrete shithole around Taipei 101? 
Taiwan’s cities are gross, no doubt about it. But then, industrial cities anywhere in the world are gross in my experience.
Scotland, where I’m from, is often held up as some kind of beautiful – and with good reason. But people don’t show pics of the central belt when they make this point because that are is by and large an industrial, heavily polluted blight. They show pics of the highlands and islands.
Same here. The highlands are gorgeous. The industrial plains are not. The industrial plains of Taiwan account for a small percentage of the island’s total area.
Siriwaki, you sound like you’re pretty lacking in experience of what the world looks like. If I might ask, where is it you’re leaving for?
And an insightful point in response AC. However, the admission of Taiwan to the WTO as a developed country had more to do with currying favor with WTO dialogue partners (principally the US) than an objective assessment of Taiwan’s level of development. I think even China was pushed through the door as a developed country, and that just defies all reason… There is a related argument to be had about the objective definition of NIC, LDC, advanced economy, etc, but insofar as Taiwan’s industrial base is still largely fixated on OEM (with a lot more lateral innovation than vertical) then it’s hard to call the place “an advanced economy.”
For goodness sake: obviously nature is beautiful, be it the Scottish highlands, the Gobi desert or Taiwan’s mountain ranges. We cannot take credit for it. What we can take credit for is the beauty of things we create, such as the spaces we live in. There is nothing wrong in admiring a concrete jungle, particularly if it is a beautiful one. Tokyo, for example has so much amazing architecture it is like being in an open-air museum. I simply love the clean structured nature of the city. The way it is all linked together is just incredible. It makes me proud of what of what man can do. Areas like that around Taipei 101 are optimistic because there is at least some effort being made to create something pleasing to the eye and liveable.
Put it this way Sandman: we all know that white marble is beautiful. It is carving it into a statue is that is commendable. To create beauty, as you do in music for example, is divine - Would you argue that a constant clatter of noise doesn’t matter that much because the birds in the trees still sing sweetly? Of course not. So too you can’t argue that the horrendous living spaces of Taiwan can be forgiven because of the beautiful mountains in the backdrop. What makes Scotland beautiful to me is not just the natural landscape there, but the ability of its people to create homes, towns and cities that are beautiful in their own right. If they couldn’t, I would call Scotland ugly too, regardless of the highlands.
This is EXACTLY the type of mindset of the bulk of the Taiwanese have that allows for the mess they, and we, all live in. I have heard it countless times from young to old…“It is because of the corrupt government, politicians, etc.” i [/i]“We / I just have to wait patiently for someone decent to get into office for things to get better” b[/b]
A society doesnt function properly when the people vote, and then sit back and do nothing. I say now to every Taiwaneseand every other person on this planet, for that matter: Get involved in your community! Take pride in your own home and community and country for pete’s sake! You see a piece of trash, pick it up and dispose of it! See dog shit on the sidewalk, shovel it or hose it away! Your building is crumbling into ruins and looks like a crap building, fix up the exterior, fork over the money to have it built right in the first place. Put the wires and plumbing behind the walls instead of the exterior! Take down those human bar-b-que grills you call safety bars on all the buildings! I could go on and on and on…But I wont, because it is futile…and here is a perfect example of why:
What it boils down to is personal pride, personal responsability, and personal action. Take pride in yourself, take pride in your family, take pride in your home…community…country and you will have a beautiful Taiwan. Too many Taiwanese are just plain lazy and selfish to give of their time to get off their lazy asses to fix anything.
Kai0831: Sorry to break the news to you, but if you want a clean and beautiful Taiwan and your only solution is, and I quote,: “As an native Taiwanese,what I have to do is wait patiently” you will be dead and long gone before there is even a twinkling of of hope for change by those standards.
Obviously you never went to Grangemouth. 
But carry on carrying on. Taiwan’s ugly. Whatever. Not the Taiwan I know, apart from the cities. Which are ugly the world over in my opinion, with very, very few exceptions, especially the industrial ones. And lets not forget, that’s the only kind Taiwan has, pretty much. Except maybe for the Xinyi district, which you actually think looks nice.
I dunno, I think there’s a lot of beauty even in Taipei. As far as finding subjects for photography, I far prefer the city over the countryside here. Taipei, especially at night, is full of beauty.
But maybe your sense of beauty is different than mine. I don’t find Warner Village/Taipei 101 very interesting, visually. Too bland. The rest of the city is much denser and more attractive to me as a photographer.
I think that there is a crucial point.
If you scan the full vista it is indeed damned grim, but stopping to focus on patches of brilliance certainly helps. If nothing else - though clearly it is in your case vis a vis photography - it is a survival technique!
HG
Obviously? Why “obviously?” There are loads of people who would find the Gobi desert ugly – flat, barren, featureless rocks and dirt. Mountains? Cold, dismal, grey.
Are you beginning yet to see just how daft your claim that “Taiwan is ugly” sounds.
Oh Sandman, how often you lambaste anyone who cares to discuss the urban decay of Taiwan. If it affects you so little stop responding to my comments in your annoyingly repetitive ‘Taiwan-is-pretty-no-matter-what-anyone-says’ way. Evidently some people are not as sensitive to filth as others. A pig can lie around in muck quite happily. A cat is always cleaning itself. The point of discussion is not about the green pastures around the pigsty, or the fact that pigs are happy in their pigsty. The point of discussion is how cats, in this sense, can live in a pigsty. It’s just a matter of interest to me. Can you handle that?
I can handle it just fine, thanks. And I do believe I’m allowed to express my ridicule of your opinions as long as I’m not rude to you, no? Don’t like the fact that someone disagrees with you, don’t read. Simple, really. Probably the best thing altogether, in fact, seeing as how you obviously totaly fail to grasp what I’m getting at, viz. Industrial cities are ugly. Period. Got fuck-all to do with which country they’re in. And if you think otherwise, you’re in for a sad awakening. Where is it you’re going to again?
Okay, lets drop it. It doesn’t matter where I’m going since this thread is not about that. If you think all big cities are ugly in the same way then it is senseless to have any further debate with you. Next time you go on vacation just look at the tufts of green and the clouds in the sky. I mean, why go to Prague if it’s the same stinking mess as Kaohsiung?
Prague’s not an industrial city. Kaohsiung is. You’re not seriously comparing the two, are you?
And you don’t want to reveal where you’re going that has industrial cities that are SO much more beautiful than those in Taiwan. Fine by me. Lessens your argument to the point of complete ridicule, of course, but you’ve already succeeded in doing that anyway, so you’re right. Not much point continuing.