I hope this is the first (or second) sign that Taiwan is not willing to pay rubbish countries like Chad to be thei allied. If diplomacy/friendship is based on how much cash you can provide over and under the table, then I hope DPP can cut the relationships ASAP.
Better with no friends, than false friends.
[quote=“phibert”]So what the hell are you? A fortuneteller? An insider with mystical psychic abilities?!!
What is this garbage about trading in passports, death and destruction?
No wonder TI is such a lost cause…[/quote]So what the hell are you? An Opium Pipe dream away from dominating the world with your Chinese nationalism. Sick of fascist freaks who love their Chairman Ma and think he is going to save Taiwan from the low class Taiwan people ruling them and bring them one step closer to their nirvana, reunification with China. Cough, hack, spew, what a crock of shit. That is the reality of getting in bed with the party that wants to UNIFY Taiwan and China. Who in their right mind would preach unification with a Communist Country? You think West Germany would have accepted to be taken over by East Germany, what about South Korea, you think they want to be ruled by North Korea? Well your beloved party the CHina Nationalism Party wants just that. Confederation schmederation, once you deal with the devil (CCP) you will never win. Just look at HK, the CCP reneged on so many of the promises to HK.
[quote=“Hobart”][quote=“phibert”]So what the hell are you? A fortuneteller? An insider with mystical psychic abilities?!!
What is this garbage about trading in passports, death and destruction?
No wonder TI is such a lost cause…[/quote]So what the hell are you? An Opium Pipe dream away from dominating the world with your Chinese nationalism. Sick of fascist freaks who love their Chairman Ma and think he is going to save Taiwan from the low class Taiwan people ruling them and bring them one step closer to their nirvana, reunification with China. Cough, hack, spew, what a crock of shit. That is the reality of getting in bed with the party that wants to UNIFY Taiwan and China. Who in their right mind would preach unification with a Communist Country? You think West Germany would have accepted to be taken over by East Germany, what about South Korea, you think they want to be ruled by North Korea? Well your beloved party the China Nationalism Party wants just that. Confederation schmederation, once you deal with the devil (CCP) you will never win. Just look at HK, the CCP reneged on so many of the promises to HK.[/quote]
I would add that the CCP’s own philosophy behind consolidating and maintaining power has always been a method of continued violence and deception against its own people. The very same people it claims to love, protect, and nurture to greatness. What in the history of the CCP leads you to beleive that a post-unification Taiwan would look anything like it does now? The CCP is the leading human rights violator on the planet, responsible for the deaths of over 80 million people. I am going to have to join Hobart in asking: Who in their right mind would want to unify with the CCP? WHy welcome the persecution of Falun Gong, Christianity, and political “dissidents”.
[quote=“Hobart”][quote=“phibert”]So what the hell are you? A fortuneteller? An insider with mystical psychic abilities?!!
What is this garbage about trading in passports, death and destruction?
No wonder TI is such a lost cause…[/quote]So what the hell are you? An Opium Pipe dream away from dominating the world with your Chinese nationalism. Sick of fascist freaks who love their Chairman Ma and think he is going to save Taiwan from the low class Taiwan people ruling them and bring them one step closer to their nirvana, reunification with China. Cough, hack, spew, what a crock of shit. That is the reality of getting in bed with the party that wants to UNIFY Taiwan and China. Who in their right mind would preach unification with a Communist Country? You think West Germany would have accepted to be taken over by East Germany, what about South Korea, you think they want to be ruled by North Korea? Well your beloved party the China Nationalism Party wants just that. Confederation schmederation, once you deal with the devil (CCP) you will never win. Just look at HK, the CCP reneged on so many of the promises to HK.[/quote]
Thanks for the duplicate PM, I feel special.
So are you a fortuneteller?
[quote=“phibert”]
So are you a fortuneteller?[/quote]
Are you a KMT or CCP supporter?
[quote=“jwbrunken”][quote=“Hobart”][quote=“phibert”]So what the hell are you? A fortuneteller? An insider with mystical psychic abilities?!!
What is this garbage about trading in passports, death and destruction?
No wonder TI is such a lost cause…[/quote]So what the hell are you? An Opium Pipe dream away from dominating the world with your Chinese nationalism. Sick of fascist freaks who love their Chairman Ma and think he is going to save Taiwan from the low class Taiwan people ruling them and bring them one step closer to their nirvana, reunification with China. Cough, hack, spew, what a crock of shit. That is the reality of getting in bed with the party that wants to UNIFY Taiwan and China. Who in their right mind would preach unification with a Communist Country? You think West Germany would have accepted to be taken over by East Germany, what about South Korea, you think they want to be ruled by North Korea? Well your beloved party the China Nationalism Party wants just that. Confederation schmederation, once you deal with the devil (CCP) you will never win. Just look at HK, the CCP reneged on so many of the promises to HK.[/quote]
I would add that the CCP’s own philosophy behind consolidating and maintaining power has always been a method of continued violence and deception against its own people. The very same people it claims to love, protect, and nurture to greatness. What in the history of the CCP leads you to beleive that a post-unification Taiwan would look anything like it does now? The CCP is the leading human rights violator on the planet, responsible for the deaths of over 80 million people. I am going to have to join Hobart in asking: Who in their right mind would want to unify with the CCP? WHy welcome the persecution of Falun Gong, Christianity, and political “dissidents”.[/quote]
The unification scenario hobart suggests is just fabrication, typicial of many TI folks.
Who says Beijing will impose the CCP on Taiwan in the event of a “unification”. Having the title of a unified China is more important than releasing a foreign governance onto the people of Taiwan.
[quote=“Doctor Evil”][quote=“phibert”]
So are you a fortuneteller?[/quote]
Are you a KMT or CCP supporter?[/quote]
I am part of the democratic majority of Taiwan.
Last time I checked, South Koreans desperately desire reunification with North Korea. I guess they haven’t yet received the memo that dealing with a Communist government implies some sort of automatic servitude.
Bottom line, Hobart’s chicken little act about Chinese “ownership” of HK aside, more foreign expats are interested in working and living in Hong Kong rather than Taiwan. Better rich and red, than green and dead. Hobart is confusing opinion with fact. We all have our own opinions, but there is only one set of observable facts.
Fact: Taiwan is run by an incompetent, confused administration that in the name of protecting democracy pushes for an ideology supported by a small percentage of the Taiwanese public while ignoring policies demanded by a large majority.
Fact: Hong Kong is thriving economically and socially, and protecting its political society far greater than folks like Hobart would’ve predicted back in 1997. Hong Kong remains a pluralistic society, and the current Hong Kong administration + Beijing central government receive very high approval ratings from Hong Kong’ers, according to HKU surveys that’ve been consistently conducted for the past 15 years.
Everything else in Hobart’s little spiel is wishful thinking, and worth no more than the rantings of any other deranged Cold Warrior desperately searching for a clue.
We already know you’re a recent arrival, so I’ll give you a free pass in not having looked at the statistics.
hkupop.hku.hk/english/home.html
HKU statistics maintained for over 15 years, which shows both the ups and downs of post-reunification Hong Kong.
Hong Kong perceptions of the freedom of speech in Hong Kong:
hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress … alfyr1.gif
Popularity of current HK Chief Executive:
hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress … halfyr.gif
Trust in the Beijing central government:
hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress … halfyr.gif
Satisfaction with economic, social, and political conditions in Hong Kong:
hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress … /poll2.gif
Confidence of Hong Kong’ers in their future, in China’s future, and in the future of the 1C2S system:
hkupop.hku.hk/english/popexpress … chart1.gif
Hong Kong perceptions of 6/4… showing that they’re hardly in line with Beijing on every issue:
hkupop.hku.hk/english/features/j … rts/g1.gif
That’s odd, doesn’t look like the sky’s falling… I’m sure democratic Taiwan is doing far, far better.
[quote=“cctang”]Fact: Taiwan is run by an incompetent, confused administration that in the name of protecting democracy pushes for an ideology supported by a small percentage of the Taiwanese public while ignoring policies demanded by a large majority.
Fact: Hong Kong is thriving economically and socially, and protecting its political society far greater than folks like Hobart would’ve predicted back in 1997. Hong Kong remains a pluralistic society, and the current Hong Kong administration + Beijing central government receive very high approval ratings from Hong Kong’ers, according to HKU surveys that’ve been consistently conducted for the past 15 years.[/quote]Why do you call your Opinion a fact? By the way, the majority of foreigners that go to HK wouldn’t know the difference between the PRC and HK flag and with their foreign passports they wouldn’t mind living in Shanghai or HK or anywhere else without freedoms. The real people that are concerned here are the citizens of HK and the citizens of Taiwan. Just ask Jimmy Lai of the Apple Daily and Next Magazine. He moved here for Taiwans guarantee of Freedom of the Press, something that was promised to HK by the PRC but taken away almost immediately after 1997. Just ask VP Annette Lu, the CCP’s propaganda gestapo blocked the HK media from ever interviewing her again and being careful how they report about Taiwan. You can ask the string of foreign editors that were pushed out or fired at the South China Morning Post as well. That is just he freedom of the press, I could go on and on…Judicial system, electoral, freedom of assembly…just this week they amended the privacy laws to allow spying by the CCP gestapo. The call came down from Beijing and there was nothing the elected officials could do about it. The democracy advocated walked out and it still passed by those Beijing loyal cowardly businessmen bureaucrats.
Just checking… are you one of these citizens of Taiwan that’s a “real person” with the right to be concerned about freedoms in Taiwan?
I’m not sure what you’re referring to in reference to Jimmy Lai. While he has geographically relocated to Taiwan (just as numerous Taiwanese media personalities have moved to Hong Kong), the Apple Daily still has a wider subscription in Hong Kong than it has in Taiwan… despite the much larger Taiwanese population. In fact, here are some quotes from a 2001 Time interview:
He calls Taiwan “Chinese soil”, and refers to Taiwan as being part of China. Are you as comfortable with that as I am?
Hey CCTang:
asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.a … ntid=33038
Here is just one article I found by a quick Google search for Jimmy Lai and “Freedom of the Press”. At the bottom of the article published by the South China Morning Post of HK, you will see a timeline showing more of what I am talking about. I lived in HK in 1996 for about a year and I have been following things in HK since 97. HK has changed so much since then in terms of their political freedoms.
Here is another quote. He is not my poster child for the erosion of democracy and press freedoms in HK, but he is one example.
[quote]
Quote from the New York Times Article
MEDIA; Publisher’s Free-Market Fervor Drives Him to Taiwan
By MARK LANDLER (NYT) 1016 words
Published: January 15, 2001
TAIPEI, Taiwan, Jan. 12 - Jimmy Lai has just flown in from Hong Kong, where the morning papers, including his own, are full of reports that a top civil servant in the former British colony has resigned.
It is the kind of story Mr. Lai’s reporters relish. The official, Anson Chan, has been viewed as a bulwark of independence since Hong Kong reverted to Chinese rule in 1997. Her departure – amid signs that she was in disfavor with the Chinese leaders – raises dark questions about Hong Kong’s future.
Yet Mr. Lai seems utterly content to be in Taiwan, where he moved from Hong Kong shortly before the new year. To Mr. Lai, Mrs. Chan’s resignation merely confirms the belief he has held since after the hand-over of Hong Kong to China, and which prompted his move here: Hong Kong is a spent force politically.
‘‘Anson’s departure represents the erosion of the last vestige of British democracy,’’ Mr. Lai said. ‘‘It is no big surprise.’’ [/quote]
Can someone please describe how HK was a democracy under the British?
So where is Jimmy Lai going to fly off to when PRC/ROC resolve the Strait Issue? NY, LA, Hawaii, Vancouver?
Will he claim those are the last Chinese democracies as well.
Sounds like a rich man with too much money and not enough brains.
I personally think Jimmy Lai has been perfectly consistent along the way… although always a businessman first, and political activist second. The question is how his actions have been interpreted.
When Jimmy Lai said “British democracy” (in an interview that was 99% likely to have been conducted in Chinese), was the emphasis on “democracy”, or was the emphasis on British? As ac_dropout points out, British democracy in Hong Kong seems a bit of a misnomer… let’s keep in mind Anson Chan was never elected to any position at any point in her life, and was never a democracy advocate while in office. She was the typical, ideal British bureaucrat.
And even if a quote out there does show Jimmy Lai did indeed predict the end of Hong Kong… so what? It’s his personal opinion, and it hardly compares with Western predictions of the same. Remember the 1995 Fortune article “Death of Hong Kong”?
Hobart, if you lived in HK in '96-'97, hopefully you’ll recognize the legitimacy of the HKU POP programme. Or, at the very least, hopefully the poll results from that time period accurately reflect the sentiment you saw amongst others. These poll results are fair, balanced… and they prove that even though there’s still a lot of doubt about when (if ever) democracy comes to Hong Kong, it’s patently unfair to claim that the territory is now a police state. By any meaningful popular metric, Hong Kong is doing very well.
Oh right, speaking of Hong Kong, yet another loss for civil liberties…
This week, a bill was passed allowing CCP officials to spy on its HK citizens. You’ll still have to go to a judge, for electronic surveillance, who are appointed with the hand of the installed leader of Hong Kong of course; but officials spying on their own need not bother themselves with such trifles (as if it was any in the first place).
Plus it says the Democratic Party in Hong Kong tried to pass 200 amendments, but all were defeated or thrown out. Wow. Almost sounds like the KMT in action. I guess all Chinese are the same: slow on progress.
tinyurl.com/j9fg2
Meanwhile domestic violence in Hong Kong rises.
dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1046337
Wow. What is next for Hong Kong? Another real estate bubble?
So thats right, Taiwan must be unified with the Mainland! Who cares about civil liberties, human rights, or freedom of speech! nono. Thats too much trouble. Race is more important! Singapore should unite with China too. Lots of Chinese there. And Chinatown in NYC, the largest in America should become a territory of China too. For the glory of the Chinese Race!!!
You’re talking about a surveillance law that is materially similar to the US Patriot Act? Are you equally concerned about your civil rights in New Jersey?
This law isn’t ideal by anyone’s account. It was legally mandated, however, by the Basic Law. Some version (uniformly held to be better, more practical and meaningful than the original British version) had to be passed by August 8th of this year. It’ll be revisited again in 2 years.
And bottom line, anecdotal storms in a teacup aside… Hong Kong’ers are fundamentally happier about their territory + government than the Taiwanese are about theirs.
No its very different from the Patriot act. I can’t spy on someone, especially in person, without due cause. Plus in the Patriot act you still have to present your case before the evidence is admitted, and you cannot spy on people unless you have due cause.
Secondly, it is publicly known that I live in New York City. You guys have made so many wrong assumptions about me, either your hacking skills suck big time or you are stalking the wrong guy (I think its both). I would have to say considering you, AC Dropout, and KMT on Xanga (who says you guys are friends) cannot get anything right about me even though its publicly available makes me wonder how good your groups research ability really is. Plus, if my IP says I’m in Jersey, its because there’s a power plant there, and hence a major node. Wake up. Trace Route isn’t 100% reliable, silly.
[quote=“cctang”]
This law isn’t ideal by anyone’s account. It was legally mandated, however, by the Basic Law. Some version (uniformly held to be better, more practical and meaningful than the original British version) had to be passed by August 8th of this year. It’ll be revisited again in 2 years.[/quote]
Uniformly held to be better? Read the article man, the Democratic Party in Hong Kong makes up a sizeable chunk of the government in HK, and they disagree with you. Plus they’ve tried to pass 200 amendments! To say its practical and meaningful to spy on citizens without due cause and accountably only to the sole authority of the CCP is frightening.
Right, Hong Kong has had some of the biggest demonstrations in known history under CCP rule. Happier? I think not.
All done in a secret court mind you. So how would you know?
And their civil liberty have been all preserved. No tanks rolled in. Jackie Chan still lives. Andy Lau is being pushed into the political spot light.
Seems like all is well in HK.
[quote=“cctang”][quote=“ShrimpCrackers”]Oh yeah, and CCTang, here’s the final blow, you’re a liar, the Spy Law does not comply with Basic Law!
“But a Hong Kong court ruled early this year that the section did not comply with the Basic Law, Hong Kong’s mini-constitution. The court effectively gave a deadline of Aug. 8 for the adoption of new legislation. The territory’s highest court, the Court of Final Appeal, upheld the decision and the deadline two weeks ago,”[/quote]
If there are no moderators, does this mean justified personal insults are now accepted?
You nincompoop. The section that did not comply with the Basic Law, as mentioned in the quote above, is the original surveillance provisions of the telecommunication law inherited from British colonial days. It is the British-era law that was found to not be in accordance with the Basic Law, necessitating the current version. Here’s the complete text which, in every way possible, is exactly opposite of your own interpretation.
And as far as the rest of your arguments, note that the Hong Kong law also requires due cause + judicial review of any such surveillance. The Patriot Act is just one element of US surveillance efforts in fighting its War on Terror, but unless you haven’t been opening your newspapers recently, there’s plenty of concern about unsuprivised, illegal government surveillance .[/quote]
I suggest you save your breath (or time spent typing). I can’t for the life of me figure out just WTF Shrimp is on about. The new law is likely full of holes and will be tested in court-just like new snooping laws in any jurisdiction. It is still infinitely better than the old law (or lack of), though. Shrimp, do you even know what the actual situation was re snooping before the court declared that the old way of doing it was against the Basic Law?
CCTang,
In the end, it requires only partial authorization from judges that are appointed by Tseng.
However, for many other more conventional forms of surveillance, like snooping in person, you don’t need to approach a judge at all.
That makes it very different from the Patriot Act.
Plus for these ‘lower level’ forms of snooping, its subject to review later, not before the action. Thats suspect, however way you want to twist it.
