Oh no! The Taiwanese people are realizing again what people all around the world know - all politicians are self-serving dickheads! This must mean unification is the only way now! 
Oh no! The Taiwanese people are realizing again what people all around the world know - all politicians are self-serving dickheads! This must mean unification is the only way now! [/quote]
If that is the case why would I support a self-serving dickhead with a TI policy the brings Taiwan close to war, than a self-serving dickhead that will improve relationship with the PRC?
Yeah but the tsunami type of show doesn’t lead to war.
Uhm, keep dreaming it basically implies that the people of Taiwan want Status Quo as they always wanted.
And in both cases he promoted a TI aggenda that no one wants.
Time to face reality. The economy is Taiwan is hurting and stagnant ever since TI rear its ugly head on Taiwan.
ROC did the best it could to survive the Cold War as it lost the Civil War.
TI on the other hand is some warped “strength by association” policy. Because the allies of ROC are strong and unopposed, we too must also be as strong as a superpower…Time to face reality TI supporters.
Probably to same amount we had to give up to the USA to achieve status quo.
By allowing ROC citizen free access to the mainland, they have allowed us the opportunity to take advantage of their growth, which the rest of the world enjoys. If they treated ROC citizen, like we treat PRC citizen there would have been almost no growth in the Taiwan economy in the past 4 years.
The KMT maybe a lot of different things. But one thing it knows is the difference between a “shadow game” and reality. USA was ripping us off.
It was the incompetency and inexperiene of the DPP to not know the arms request list to the USA is a “shadow game” done every year as a symbolic gesture of ROC and USA relationship. What idiot would buy arms from a country that doesn’t even make the stuff nor have it in its inventory anymore.
PRC and USA have nukes pointed at each other. And their relationship seems very stable.
The position has been Status Quo, as it has been for the past 30 years.
And if the people wish is to remain in Status Quo and develop closer relationship with the PRC. When will TI supporters stop deluding themselves of this fact.
As for the PRC, the people there want to do business and become rich, that’s what their government is doing for them as well.
Where as our leadership seems to want to repackage TI, everytime the people reject it.
You seem to advocate that China should start a war should Taiwan seek TI.
We’ll have you farewell party to see you off to South America real soon.
Why should I not vote for TI as a citizen of the ROC? Why should I not support TI?
Do you think that some independent countries have not had wars to become independent? The cost of freedom and independnce does not come cheap.
I would advocate ROC keep the territorial integrity of China if the mainland decided to declare independence as well from “One China”.
Already been there and back. You missed party already.
Go ahead vote for what you believe it. I’m only advocating my position, which I believe will avoid war and allow for the economic prosperity of Taiwan. Which of course will allow ROC to keep our dignity, which is so precious.
You mean like those old grunts in the ROC military. They have some pretty nice tales about fighting the commies, japanese, and everyone else that wanted a piece of them. Do some community service at those retirement barracks and you’ll see the cost first hand.
No Dolby 6.1 or HDTV resolution to give you that warm fuzzy feeling. Just the cold reality of dying lonely and forgotten when you lose the good fight.
Maybe I just need to watch more of those Cuban propaganda videos to work up the fire to take on the PRC in a direct confrontation. Not to mention forget the whole episode of the Cold War on how USA created the textbook real politics policies that ensured Cuba never properly developed even after the USSR collapsed.
I would advocate ROC keep the territorial integrity of China if the mainland decided to declare independence as well from “One China”.
[/quote]
I love a good, solid, logical reason to support One-China. I mean hey, if China can do it then so can Taiwan, right? Lien/Soong, are you listening??
Mmm… what’s the word I’m looking for, poetic absurdity?
[quote] I love a good, solid, logical reason to support One-China. I mean hey, if China can do it then so can Taiwan, right? Lien/Soong, are you listening??
Mmm… what’s the word I’m looking for, poetic absurdity?[/quote]
Foolish as it may sound, it is a cornerstone of KMT idealogy, even in 1992 during negotiations with PRC, KMT were still not ready to abandon the idea of “One China.”
Think about it this way, if PRC does crumble like some anti-communist proponent suggest, like the USSR; ROC will be ready in the wings to re-take the mainland, and fill the power vacuum.
No it won’t: because Taiwan will be free from the Communists by then 
GOOD POLL!
Yes.
Up to the Taiwanese; no preference. Nothing wrong with a bigger, stronger China as long as it is a peaceful democracy.
Can’t imagine them being opposed. 
Too dangerous. But if it does, I’ll stay and fight if they’ll let me.
In my opinion, Taiwan has already declared independence many times. Taiwan is an independent country, absolutely NOT a part of China or of any other country. The most important work we need to do now is to make it clear to the world community that Taiwan has nothing to do with China. Taiwan is Taiwan, China is China. And I really hope that those “democratic” countries which flatter China should understand what is the real benefit to the world.
what vshchen said.
ac_dropout and zeugmite, I would be grateful if you would answer the following. I know that you don’t think these are the only options, or even realistic options, but I think your responses might help me to understand you a little better. (Ac especially as in many of your posts you seem to be advocating a gradual reunification not because of any belief in it per se but rather because you think it is the only way to avoid problems with China and is therefor good for the people of Taiwan). So to the question:
If you had to choose between one of the two options below which one would you choose?
-
Taiwan becoming independent with out any conflict and enjoying good relations with China.
-
Taiwan being annexed by / reunified with China through military means.
Like I noted above, you will undoubtedly want to say something about the invalidity or the unlikeliness of these options, but if you could just pick 1 or 2 that would be very helpful. Thanks.
I would choose 1. I do not believe in unwanted reunification by force, especially if it can be the case that in independence there will be a truly mutually beneficial relationship with mainland China.
If you want to understand me better, then simply count me as someone who believes it is for all Chinese to agree on a mutually beneficial solution. What I oppose is not so much TI, but TI in the face of opposition by nearly all mainland Chinese, and the notion that they don’t matter at all.
[quote=“zeugmite”]I would choose 1. I do not believe in unwanted reunification by force, especially if it can be the case that in independence there will be a truly mutually beneficial relationship with mainland China.
If you want to understand me better, then simply count me as someone who believes it is for all Chinese to agree on a mutually beneficial solution. What I oppose is not so much Taiwan independence, but Taiwan independence in the face of opposition by nearly all mainland Chinese, and the notion that they don’t matter at all.[/quote]
It is not upto the people in China to decide Taiwans fate. When the people of Quebec had a referendum on succesion the whole of Canada did not vote, only the people of Quebec.
Nobody is saying that the people of China don’t matter, only that they can’t vote in Taiwan’s internal elections. After all, they don’t vote in China’s elections either… :loco: :loco: :loco:
I’m with John Locke.
Once you leave the Mandate of Heaven behind, what’s left is the Mandate of the People. What the people want is what the people should get. Once a people agree to be bound by some government or other then they are bound by that government as long as it fufills its basic functionality of serving the welfare of the general population. I feel that Taiwan is at a point where it should be offered a choice by what government it desires to be bound.
I don’t believe Taiwan has ever submitted to The People’s Republic of China. You can argue that they were under the Republic of China up until Japan took it and that afterwards they returned to the Republic of China, but internationally that is no longer recognized and internally it is deeply questioned.
Why not clear up the matter with the most absolute of solutions? Let the people choose their form of government.
Mainland China has no legitimate claim other than a historical connection. The claim it constantly asserts about Taiwan being part of it is one it forced out of all the countries of the world by its bullying tactics. That is not a legitimate claim. So when they claim it is an internal matter, when they claim Taiwan has no right to say what it wants for a government, to my eyes it is the sound of a tyrant seeking subjegate others. But were the Taiwanese to choose to be bound to their historical empire, and were China to choose to adopt a more human-centered position and let this happen, then China would no more be a tyrant.
China has come a long way, and may soon make a good government for whatever territory it governs. But were I a Taiwanese citizen I would vote in favor of a new sovereign constitution rather than autonomy under China.
So, I’m in favor of a referendum, and I’m in favor of gradual and peaceful movement for a recognition of independence it already enjoys. I think the best hope for this is for mainland China to act like an enlightened country.
Taiwan was attached by a foreign, Manchu government without the say of the Taiwanese; invaded and ruled by a foreign, Japanese government without the say of the Taiwanese; some will add “occupied”, others “reclaimed”, by KMT forces – either way, it was without the say of the Taiwanese; and now claimed by a distant, illegitimate communist government in Beijing without the say of the Taiwanese?
What ever happened to self-determination? Hasn’t the world progressed morally to the point that it recognizes this right? How could anyone argue that the oppressive, murderous communist bastards in Beijing should have any say at all? Probably only someone who grew up brainwashed by their PRC govt’s media.
This is why I answered “Taiwan is effectively independent, but…”
[quote=“puiwaihin”]You can argue that they were under the Republic of China up until Japan took it and that afterwards they returned to the Republic of China, but internationally that is no longer recognized and internally it is deeply questioned.[/quote]Not to jump all over you or anything, but you might try doing a little more research before posting here.
Taiwan was ceded to Japan in perpetuity in 1895, during the Ching dynasty, in the Treaty of Shimonoseki. The treaty gave Taiwan to Japan in exchange for cessation of hostilities in northern China. The Republic of China didn’t come into being until 1911 when the Ching dynasty finally collapsed.
The People’s Republic of China was declared on 12/10/49 over all of China, but obviously the PRC has never held jurisdiction here, either in law or in fact.
Taiwan was part of Japan until The San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1952 divested it of it’s wartime spoils including Taiwan, but the treaty does not appear to pass Taiwan’s sovereignty to the ROC. Instead the treaty declares that “…the future status of Taiwan will be decided in accord with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.”
[quote=“hsiadogah”] Taiwan was ceded to Japan in perpetuity in 1895, during the Ching dynasty, in the Treaty of Shimonoseki. The treaty gave Taiwan to Japan in exchange for cessation of hostilities in northern China. The Republic of China didn’t come into being until 1911 when the Ching dynasty finally collapsed.
The People’s Republic of China was declared on 12/10/49 over all of China, but obviously the PRC has never held jurisdiction here, either in law or in fact.
Taiwan was part of Japan until The San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1952 divested it of it’s wartime spoils including Taiwan, but the treaty does not appear to pass Taiwan’s sovereignty to the ROC. Instead the treaty declares that "…the future status of Taiwan will be decided in accord with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations."[/quote]
Nicely put Mr H…
Well the UN seems a bit lacklustre with it’s own internal corruption scandals… much like the PRC… so we wait and see if the UN has any backbone to recognize Taiwan if it declares formal independence…
You do spew forth a load of shite there AC… can’t you at least try to say something constructive and useful…
The only people who dream about retaking the mainland are some washed up old KMT stalwart dreamers
[quote=“hsiadogah”][quote=“puiwaihin”]You can argue that they were under the Republic of China up until Japan took it and that afterwards they returned to the Republic of China, but internationally that is no longer recognized and internally it is deeply questioned.[/quote]Not to jump all over you or anything, but you might try doing a little more research before posting here.
Taiwan was ceded to Japan in perpetuity in 1895, during the Ching dynasty, in the Treaty of Shimonoseki. The treaty gave Taiwan to Japan in exchange for cessation of hostilities in northern China. The Republic of China didn’t come into being until 1911 when the Ching dynasty finally collapsed.
The People’s Republic of China was declared on 12/10/49 over all of China, but obviously the PRC has never held jurisdiction here, either in law or in fact.
Taiwan was part of Japan until The San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1952 divested it of it’s wartime spoils including Taiwan, but the treaty does not appear to pass Taiwan’s sovereignty to the ROC. Instead the treaty declares that “…the future status of Taiwan will be decided in accord with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.”[/quote]
Bad error on my part. Thanks for the correction. I had thought the ceding of Taiwan to Japan had come after the formation of the ROC.