Taiwan Independence, Reunification, & Self Determination

Politics Taiwan Politics
1

Which do you support?

  • Taiwan Independence
  • Reunification with the mainland
  • Self-Determination (No matter what the outcome)

0 voters

This topic is in response to a comment made by Poagao, wherein he said that most foreigners support Taiwan Independence.

I would suggest that most foreigners support Taiwan’s right to self-determination, which is subtly different.

What do you think? Should Taiwan be independent? Is it an inseparable part of China? Or should Taiwanese be allowed to determine their future independently, no matter what the outcome?

2

For those who voted reunification with the mainland, would you really want to see Taiwan governed by a corrupt, barbaric, murderous communist regime?

3

Maoman, that is a tricky question. While full independence might be reached as a result of self-determination, Taiwan will need a certain degree of “independence” in the first place to be able to decide its own future.
Under the current circumstances, Taiwan does not have the “freedom” or “independence” for self-determination, China would probably have some heavy arguments against that. So, should I now vote for “independence” to let Taiwan decide its own way or should I vote for “self-determination” hoping (hmm, may I say “knowing”?) that people will go for independence?

4

Maoman is right to point out that the right of nations or peoples to self-determination does not equal independence. Self-determination is an exercise of the freedom of choice. Obviously, if the only outcome allowed is independence, then there is no self-determination. Self-determination must be the right to choose whether to be independent or not.

But it gets more complicated. When we talk about the right of nations to self-determination, whose right to decide are we talking about? In the case of Tibet, for example, would it be the former rulers, the serf-owning class, including the Dalai Lama, or the mass of the people, the majority of whom used to be serfs? Clearly, under the feudal system in Tibet, the serfs could not have had any say in the matter, since they had no democratic rights whatsoever.

Moreover, if the right of self-determination applies to “nations” or “peoples,” then who is going to decide what constitutes a “nation” or a “people?” Stalin had a go, but he is not usually considered to be a model for handling ethnic and national problems. Any other definitions?

Irish nationalists insist on the right of determination for the Irish people as a whole, on the grounds that Ireland is a nation, and Northern Ireland is not. On the other hand, the British insist that Northern Ireland must be taken as a separate unit in the decision process, creating the so-called “loyalist veto.”[color=red]*[/color] China would certainly be of the opinion that Taiwan, like Northern Ireland, is not a nation in itself, but a part of the Chinese nation (Zhonghua minzu,) and that the right to self-determination does not, therefore, apply to Taiwan. Since China is strong and Taiwan is weak, China’s opinion on the matter is likely to prevail.

[color=red]*[/color]For an interesting discussion of the principle of self-determination in relation to Northern Ireland, have a look at [i][url=http://www.lilt.ilstu.edu/critique/Fall2001Docs/tdonnelly.htm]Northern Irish unionism: a Reconsideration of the Unionists

5

There’s one option that should be included in the poll, but isn’t, and that’s to keep to status quo (however you define it.)
I for one would like to see the DPP sort out some matters closer to home before its politicians start prancing around in the international political arena.

6

It seems that things are getting more complicated in Taiwan. There are reports in the newspapers that the DPP is thinking of giving up on “Taiwan Independence” …

Or is that just some new political strategy to save face in front of mounting KMT and PFP pressure?

7

I read the report as well. It was one of the heads in the DPP. He cited CSB inaugural speech as evidence of giving up the Independence idea.

I don’t think he is going to generate much support within his party though.

8

[quote=“Hartzell”]It seems that things are getting more complicated in Taiwan. There are reports in the newspapers that the DPP is thinking of giving up on “Taiwan Independence” …

Or is that just some new political strategy to save face in front of mounting KMT and PFP pressure?[/quote]

I read that report too, and it was just the one man’s suggestion, not a presidential policy which has been outlined or anything. That guy’s comments were shot down pretty quickly by other DPP leadership who pointed out the DPP has already dropped the independence clause of its platform by adopting the DPP Resolution on Taiwan’s Future, that this resolution represents the party line and that anything about independence left over in DPP stuff more or less amounts to a “historical document.” Taiwan is already independent, remember, that’s the DPP’s line.

Now that’s not to say that given these realities, the DPP and PFP can’t find a way to use the same sentence to describe the Taiwan/ROC and independence/unification/self-determinatinon situation.

9

Should the people of Taiwan determine thier country’s future? Yes

Should that be independence??? If declaring independence means going to war, then probably not. But if China attacks first then by all means, declare independence.

Funny how the USA harps on about people having democratic rights and being able to determine their own future, except of course Taiwan.

Would China try to block the straits of Taiwan. Japan and Korea may have something to say about that. The Japanese would have to defend their trade routes in the national interest.

Politically the USA is not going to support anything so the status quo will roll on. China will not start a war first. Secondly China doesnt have a navy big enough for the job, which is why they need those cross straight roads.

All those talking that China would use nukes are I believe sadly misguided. Taiwan might retaliate with some of their own.

10

By definition if ROC has nukes, then PRC is justified in taking military action against ROC…this stuff is already out in the international community already. Which is why ROC scrap the domestic nuke program decades ago.

Korea and Japan were right behind us in 1996 when the missle came. So far behind I barely saw them.

11

I think the one caveat for self-determination must be that the choice is made free of outside threats or military manipulation.

12

Independence is the only way forward.

13

[quote=“dl7und”]Maoman, that is a tricky question. While full independence might be reached as a result of self-determination, Taiwan will need a certain degree of “independence” in the first place to be able to decide its own future.
Under the current circumstances, Taiwan does not have the “freedom” or “independence” for self-determination, China would probably have some heavy arguments against that. So, should I now vote for “independence” to let Taiwan decide its own way or should I vote for “self-determination” hoping (hmm, may I say “knowing”?) that people will go for independence?[/quote]

I voted for Self-Determination, but I think I made a mistake, as dl7und and others have pointed out. I personally believe Taiwan is already independant, that the vast majority of Taiwanese want to be independant, and as such this is a moot point.

The problem is more that Taiwan has no “international independance”, if you will, which leads to a certain lack of self-determination in international affairs, which of course everyone should have. So therefore I vote that Taiwan should be able to self-determine its international affairs, which means an independant identify from China, which means Independance, by the definitions I assume the poll has.

14

What justifies the PRC taking military action against Taiwan for having nukes? I thik the threat of a nuclear war is not real. Not unless you want Asia to step back to the dark ages.

The Israeli’s have nukes, perhaps that’s why those Arab countries which tried to remove Isreal from the geograpical map not so long ago now keep their troops at home. Let’s not forget that the Arab news media were gloating about their supposed victory over Israel during the brief war, then got humiliated when they lost and gave up some significant real estate, which they now want back, but which they will never see again.

Where is it written? Is there some vague international law you’re going to quote?

The only way Taiwan will be considered independent is if the US reognizes Taiwan and officially turns the AIT into an American Embassy, and that’s not likely to happen anytime soon due to the bean counters running the US government. The U.N. doesn’t count as it’s has been shown to be a toothless, corrupt organization.

15

I did vote that way, and as long as you’re willing to put it in such a dry, neutral, colorless, and unemotional context, sure, I really want that. :unamused:

OOC

16

One one hand, Taiwan’s culture and economy suggest some sort of close relationship with China is all but inevitable. On the other hand, no Chinese leaders (Communist or otherwise, mainland or local) are trustworthy, and it is much better to be lorded over by gangsters who live next door and are probably related to you. This suggests more autonomy is better.

I would like to see them finesse the issue somehow. The trick is to do it in such a way that China would actually be bound by its promises, and not like what happened in Hong Kong or Tibet. If they can hold out until China itself decentralizes, that would be best, I think.

But if they want to vote to be slaves, then I think they’re entitled. Or if they don’t want to do what it takes to defend themselves, then it’s ultimately their collective derriere on the line. So yeah, self-determination, whatever that really is.

17

I did vote that way, and as long as you’re willing to put it in such a dry, neutral, colorless, and unemotional context, sure, I really want that. :unamused:

OOC[/quote]

The other reality is that most of the Forumosa members don’t have voting rights in Taiwan as they are foreigners. So what they think here doesn’t really matter. Re-unification is not actually discussed very often by ROC nationals that I know. But they do get this grey ashen coloured look when I suggest that Taiwan should be run under the Communist government of China.

Although some may talk about it, persuiing it is not what anybody I know of actually wants. The local aborigines couldnt care less either way. They’ve been raped, murdered and tortured by the KMT, but they were never mistreated by the Japanese up in the area where I live.

18

Ah, but I strongly disfavor Americans, military or civilian, dying to keep anything American except America, and I only go along with the latter if it’s absolutely necessary.

Me, too. That’s why I favor Taiwan self-determination.

I came in as an isolationist, and I’m an American.

Speaking for myself only, I’m for Taiwan determining its own future. But as a realist, you should know that there are times when human beings try to determine their own future, and it’s just not in the cards.

I don’t know if it’s in the cards for Taiwan to determine its future. I don’t know what Taiwan’s future holds. But in any case, for me, Taiwan determining its own future doesn’t mean the same thing as the US determining Taiwan’s future. In fact, if Taiwan declares independence, that’s perfectly okay with me. But an independence that depends on the US military is not a real independence. Again, self-determination means just that to me: self-determination.

19

I think one of the most compelling arguments for continued political independence is Taiwan’s history of interaction with central governments located off the island or governments with greater intrests in any other territory besides Taiwan and the outlying islands. Under the late Qing (Beijing really had little influence or interest in Taiwan before the Self-Strengthening movement of the latter 19th Century), Japan and the Nationalist R.O.C. Taiwanese have reacted to these regimes as colonial regimes. In each case we can see the beginning pattern of reaction to colonialism, though each case represents an unfulfilled drive toward Taiwanese nationalism.
Colonialism almost always leads to nationalism. Colonized people tend to first resist their colonizers, then work within the colonial system to maximize their benifits through economic and political means before the inequality between the colonized and the colonizer leads to a call for nationalism. Indonesia provides a great example of a dispora of people and cultures united by a colonial past and a resistence to the Dutch. Taiwan’s early drive toward dejure nationhood started under the waning Qing, was renewed under the Japanese, but WWII and the Japanese surrender in 1945 stymied the decolonization process at the “demand for greater authority” stage, before starting over again under the Nationalists. The KMT regime, although differing in many ways from other colonial regimes, mainly for the fact that it moved the metropole to Taiwan and included Taiwan as a part of the country, was responded to by Taiwanese as a colonial power due to the nature of the KMT regime and a recent Taiwanese colonial experience. By limiting Taiwanese participation in the state and promoting a national policy of opposing the communists and retaking the mainland, a policy that most Taiwanese were indifferent to, the KMT began pushing Taiwanese to enter into a process of opposition based on the colonial model. Taiwanese resisted, then used “safe” participation in the state to demand greater Taiwanese participation in the state. The next stage is Taiwanese nationalism.
Should China take Taiwan, the process of de-colonization would begin again as Taiwanese would again be a distant colony pressed to serve a distant metropole in Beijing that would likely view Taiwan as only one small contributor to a centralized polity and economy, like the days of the Japanese empire when Taiwan was the agrarian base to serve the home islands.

20

Taiwan should have nukes (or oil). The the world would sit up and listen. Sad but true. My only worry is that there are some mad rabid politicians here who would use them.