Then let’s be rational. Why isn’t Seediq Independence even talked about?
Maybe perhaps because they haven’t really said anything about gaining independence?
Maybe perhaps because they haven’t really said anything about gaining independence?[/quote]
Whether we came in the 1940’s or the 300 years before that, the indigenous tribes of Taiwan see us all as the same: Chinese. To them, we all come from China.
Maybe perhaps because they haven’t really said anything about gaining independence?[/quote]
Whether we came in the 1940’s or the 300 years before that, the indigenous tribes of Taiwan see us all as the same: Chinese. To them, we all come from China.[/quote]
I’ll be frank with you. I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to say here. Did you get enough sleep?
Maybe perhaps because they haven’t really said anything about gaining independence?[/quote]
Whether we came in the 1940’s or the 300 years before that, the indigenous tribes of Taiwan see us all as the same: Chinese. To them, we all come from China.[/quote]
I’ll be frank with you. I honestly have no idea what you’re trying to say here. Did you get enough sleep?[/quote]
To the indigenous people of Formosa/Taiwan/Tohoku, whether you came from the mainland during the Qing Dynasty or right after Japanese Imperial rule, you are all Chinese; all occupiers.
You’re implying that the Seediq themselves don’t identify as Chinese. Isn’t that counter to your argument of an all inclusive Zhonghua Minzu? And in your book, do Western immigrants to Taiwan count as part of Zhonghua Minzu?
Taiwanese don’t admit that they try to escape from the world. There is no such independent country that delcare foreign territory as its own territory. It is just too contradiction.
Try: Argentina, Spain, China, India, Russia, Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei… just to name a few off the top of my head.
Taiwan is by far the worst among them though, after all our Constitution does claim a territory which is 250 times larger than our own.
Not at all. The ROC is a country, Zhonghua Minzu is an identity. Seediq, Hoklo, Hakka and any number of other identities should thrive in the Republic of China.
Not saying you’re wrong about any of the above, but have you asked yourself “Why?” In my opinion, it’s because deep down pretty much everyone but the hardest hardline TI’ers realize that they have no workable plan for formal independence. I started a thread here in 2012 entitled Taiwan Independence: Realistically How?. The thread got a lot of comments from both proponents and opponents of TI, but at the end of the day I didn’t see a single response that answered the question “Realistically, how?”
Sure, Taiwan can write a new constitution, declare a Republic of Taiwan (that no one will recognize), rename the streets, put Chen Shuibian’s photo on the NT$100 bill, and declare Taiwanese the national language (instantly rendering the entire population illiterate). And then have a brief war (either military or economic) with China which the Taiwanese lose, resulting in them becoming a fully integrated province of the PRC, or maybe even annexed into Fujian province so that they don’t even have a provincial government.
Or the Taiwanese can continue to maintain the status quo, playing along with the 1912 ROC constitution and 1992 Consensus, both polite fictions that have worked well. China will continue its pressure, and Taiwan can continue to stall, for many decades to come. No idea how it would end, but I think in another 20 or 30 years, the world is going to be so full of problems like an energy shortage, rising sea levels, overpopulation, and non-stop Islamic violence, that none of this China-Taiwan stuff is going to matter. Maybe China will be so distracted by its problems that the Taiwanese could then even declare independence, though at that point Taiwan will have enough problems of its own without wanting to add to them.
The thing is, despite the constant whining of the DPP and the TI’ers (who seem to think that the ROC is the most horrible place in the world), Taiwan is actually a pretty successful society as it is, and few people here want to risk throwing it all away for a 10-day independence party before the war with China begins. Of course, foreigners who have passports and plan to hop on the first plane out of here, are happy to egg the Taiwanese on to disaster. Personally, I’m not the least bit bothered by streets named Zhonghua Lu, or seeing Sun Yatsen’s smiling face on the NT$100 bill, and I suspect that those of you who claim to be so horrified by these things actually don’t really care that much about it either, but can’t admit that publicly or to yourself.
If “avoiding a war” is the only consideration you count as having a plan, then I’d say the status quo isn’t a plan either. The status quo to PRC’s view is also TI and they will choose to end it when it is convenient for them. China is near its own bubble bust, and it would be interesting to see how the weakening Russia and China would resort to. But in the end, avoiding the war was never up for Taiwan to decide.
By the way, if the end result is maintaining effective independence without actually declaring it whilst avoiding a war, or at least have a good chance of winning one, then inthat case, I’d say the TCG people have a plan.
I have long argued not to threaten the roc with things like name change and eviction. I believe the correct approach is to enter into negotiation towards signing a peace accord or some sort of agreement. This provides a way for Taiwan to recognize roc, and vice-versa, by establishing a special relationship. If Tsai is smart she can take this idea to beef up her Taiwan Consensus platfrom.
Only after having securing and recovering its rights & assets through legal means may Taiwan allow roc to resolve its outstanding issue with the Chinese government regarding its political place in China.
[quote=“Dog’s_Breakfast”][quote=“Hokwongwei”]
It’s no secret that the KMT and CPC love tearing into TI. But it’s disappointing to see the green camp shying away from the topic as well. I offer exhibit A: the dust-up over Ko Wen-je’s ID card. Lien’s campaign published a half-page ad in a paper today saying that Ko once tore up his national ID card to show his support of Taiwan Independence (after all, the ID card says “Zhonghua Minguo” / Republic of China on it!!!) Ko evasively denied it as “3 parts true, 7 parts false” and later said he identifies with the ROC as his country…
…What this incident shows us is that Taidu is a dirty word…
…Ko’s response is not terribly encouraging either. He categorized the attack ad as a “falsification” and “mud-slinging” (造假 and 抹黑) and said: “I have no idea when I have ever gone and preached about Taiwan Independence.” His denial just proves that even for a green politician, TI is a touchy subject that they feel is better left untalked about.
[/quote]
Not saying you’re wrong about any of the above, but have you asked yourself “Why?” In my opinion, it’s because deep down pretty much everyone but the hardest hardline TI’ers realize that they have no workable plan for formal independence. I started a thread here in 2012 entitled Taiwan Independence: Realistically How?. The thread got a lot of comments from both proponents and opponents of TI, but at the end of the day I didn’t see a single response that answered the question “Realistically, how?”
Sure, Taiwan can write a new constitution, declare a Republic of Taiwan (that no one will recognize), rename the streets, put Chen Shuibian’s photo on the NT$100 bill, and declare Taiwanese the national language (instantly rendering the entire population illiterate). And then have a brief war (either military or economic) with China which the Taiwanese lose, resulting in them becoming a fully integrated province of the PRC, or maybe even annexed into Fujian province so that they don’t even have a provincial government.
Or the Taiwanese can continue to maintain the status quo, playing along with the 1912 ROC constitution and 1992 Consensus, both polite fictions that have worked well. China will continue its pressure, and Taiwan can continue to stall, for many decades to come. No idea how it would end, but I think in another 20 or 30 years, the world is going to be so full of problems like an energy shortage, rising sea levels, overpopulation, and non-stop Islamic violence, that none of this China-Taiwan stuff is going to matter. Maybe China will be so distracted by its problems that the Taiwanese could then even declare independence, though at that point Taiwan will have enough problems of its own without wanting to add to them.
The thing is, despite the constant whining of the DPP and the TI’ers (who seem to think that the ROC is the most horrible place in the world), Taiwan is actually a pretty successful society as it is, and few people here want to risk throwing it all away for a 10-day independence party before the war with China begins. Of course, foreigners who have passports and plan to hop on the first plane out of here, are happy to egg the Taiwanese on to disaster. Personally, I’m not the least bit bothered by streets named Zhonghua Lu, or seeing Sun Yatsen’s smiling face on the NT$100 bill, and I suspect that those of you who claim to be so horrified by these things actually don’t really care that much about it either, but can’t admit that publicly or to yourself.[/quote]
Nice stated. Thank you. If maintaining the much loathed status quo averts disaster I am all for it. In many situations in life we choose the status quo as it is the often a viable and very suitable method to manage a situation. I have a life here with a wife and friends who I care deeply about and think this is best situation for their future. We all deeply love Taiwan and feel this method is best for Taiwan. We recognize the China threat (yes, we really do, covert, overt and any other way) and one day might need to give our lives to defend Taiwan…we will evaluate the situation year-by-year and maybe decide later the status quo at that time is not the best “solution.”
[quote=“hansioux”]If “avoiding a war” is the only consideration you count as having a plan, then I’d say the status quo isn’t a plan either. The status quo to PRC’s view is also TI and they will choose to end it when it is convenient for them. China is near its own bubble bust, and it would be interesting to see how the weakening Russia and China would resort to. But in the end, avoiding the war was never up for Taiwan to decide.
By the way, if the end result is maintaining effective independence without actually declaring it whilst avoiding a war, or at least have a good chance of winning one, then inthat case, I’d say the TCG people have a plan.[/quote]
What would the Republic of Taiwan have that the Republic of China doesn’t?
[quote=“Dirt”][quote=“hansioux”]If “avoiding a war” is the only consideration you count as having a plan, then I’d say the status quo isn’t a plan either. The status quo to PRC’s view is also TI and they will choose to end it when it is convenient for them. China is near its own bubble bust, and it would be interesting to see how the weakening Russia and China would resort to. But in the end, avoiding the war was never up for Taiwan to decide.
By the way, if the end result is maintaining effective independence without actually declaring it whilst avoiding a war, or at least have a good chance of winning one, then inthat case, I’d say the TCG people have a plan.[/quote]
What would the Republic of Taiwan have that the Republic of China doesn’t?[/quote]
It’d have a state of Taiwan that ROC doesn’t have.
[quote=“Dirt”][quote=“hansioux”]If “avoiding a war” is the only consideration you count as having a plan, then I’d say the status quo isn’t a plan either. The status quo to PRC’s view is also TI and they will choose to end it when it is convenient for them. China is near its own bubble bust, and it would be interesting to see how the weakening Russia and China would resort to. But in the end, avoiding the war was never up for Taiwan to decide.
By the way, if the end result is maintaining effective independence without actually declaring it whilst avoiding a war, or at least have a good chance of winning one, then inthat case, I’d say the TCG people have a plan.[/quote]
What would the Republic of Taiwan have that the Republic of China doesn’t?[/quote]
It’s what a Republic of Taiwan wouldn’t have that makes it more preferable. A Republic of Taiwan wouldn’t have the ambiguity of the intentions of the Taiwanese people, so that foreign countries wouldn’t be confused and China cannot manipulate the ambiguity.
Truly free elections.
A state of Taiwan codified in a constitutional act of Taiwan secures and guarantees the exclusive legal right over this country for the people of Taiwan.
[quote=“sofun”] If Tsai is smart she can take this idea to beef up her Taiwan Consensus platfrom.
[/quote]
Respectfully, I disagree. Smart would not be pushing the Taiwan consensus as an item that becomes validated through a win in a general election. I had to look up exactly what the Taiwan consensus is, which basically says the Taiwan consensus is a consensus that the 1992 consensus is not a consensus. Well, no surprise the DPP don’t agree there is one China and Taiwan is a part of it.
But this doesn’t address the problem or why the Taiwan public voted in the KMT on a platform that allowed them to negotiate with the Chinese, twice. The Chinese will only negotiate on the basis of one China, it was a sticking point for years and despite whether or not it actually existed, its a means to an end. A little more on the Taiwan consensus and it goes on to say.
[quote]the Taiwanese government has no basis for negotiations with China[/quote]
Bingo! That was the problem, and if the 1992 consensus is rejected becomes the problem again. So what is their master plan to solve this?
China doesn’t have common ground. There is only one acceptable way to enter into any negotiations. They can sit around a table and think of all the wonderful ways they think Taiwan should be doing negotiations. China doesn’t care! No wonder the USA called Tsai’s policy towards China naive. Is she really going to make another run for president with this? You ask “if” Tsai is smart, I would say thats a pretty big “if”.